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zaai
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 175
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 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: |
We didn't pull it. Get in touch with Ciaran and ask him for a copy if you want it, I certainly don't have a copy handy... |
I asked Ciaran and he says:
| Quote: | | I don't have access to modify anything under dev.g.o/~ciaranm/ |
What I see here is that people that work hard to make Gentoo a success get into a 'squirmish'  . Please please try to resolve this quickly. Lets watch our language and remember that we are after the same thing. The success of Gentoo. We might differ on how to get there but please do respect each other's opinion.
I'll get off my soapbox now. 
ps: and please get those pages back online 
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* most bugs can be reduced to either dependency or state *
Athlon64 X2 4800+ on Asus M2N SLI deluxe with 4GB Dual channel
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's true that he doesn't have access to dev.gentoo.org; regardless he did take it down before he was suspended and around the same time he sent mail to the dev list insulting a fellow developer outright, and last I heard he also pulled it from his own personal website. Coupled with the note he left on his devspace that would seem to indicate pulling the doc was more an attempt to get people irritated at devrel than anything else.
plasmaroo is working on it: http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/ciaran-the-doc-temporary-mirror-until-I-fully-fix-this-into-something-usable/ |
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zaai
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 175
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ciaran was kind enough to provide me with his devmanual. I just had to ask in a friendly way 
The manual needs to be compiled using docutils. It does come with the disclaimer that it was designed to run on his box so it requires some tweaking to build the documents.
Since Ciaran has no objection sharing it with you, just let me know if you like a copy (zaai spaaij net). If any of the devs likes to rebuild the docs for publication then by all means, go ahead.
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* most bugs can be reduced to either dependency or state *
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petrjanda
Veteran
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: Brno, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | It's true that he doesn't have access to dev.gentoo.org; regardless he did take it down before he was suspended and around the same time he sent mail to the dev list insulting a fellow developer outright, and last I heard he also pulled it from his own personal website. Coupled with the note he left on his devspace that would seem to indicate pulling the doc was more an attempt to get people irritated at devrel than anything else.
plasmaroo is working on it: http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/ciaran-the-doc-temporary-mirror-until-I-fully-fix-this-into-something-usable/ |
Tell me you never insulted/attacked anyone verbally when you got angry it gets over your head and you arent cooling down, and it will be just. It seems to me you guys are trying to be these "gods" that are perfect in every way. Yes he insulted a number of devs, im not diminishing what he did, and perhaps if you ignored him for a while instead of suspending him he would maybe even say "sorry buddy i overreacted", but not this way because right now its quite possible you guys will be allinated to each other for a quite a while and you dont want that in kind of a "workplace". His contribution to the support forums and gentoo outweights his personality "flaws".
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There is, a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be no escape from this here that is born, become, made and compounded. - Gautama Siddharta |
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| petrjanda wrote: | | avenj wrote: | It's true that he doesn't have access to dev.gentoo.org; regardless he did take it down before he was suspended and around the same time he sent mail to the dev list insulting a fellow developer outright, and last I heard he also pulled it from his own personal website. Coupled with the note he left on his devspace that would seem to indicate pulling the doc was more an attempt to get people irritated at devrel than anything else.
plasmaroo is working on it: http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/ciaran-the-doc-temporary-mirror-until-I-fully-fix-this-into-something-usable/ |
Tell me you never insulted/attacked anyone verbally when you got angry it gets over your head and you arent cooling down, and it will be just. It seems to me you guys are trying to be these "gods" that are perfect in every way. Yes he insulted a number of devs, im not diminishing what he did, and perhaps if you ignored him for a while instead of suspending him he would maybe even say "sorry buddy i overreacted", but not this way because right now its quite possible you guys will be allinated to each other for a quite a while and you dont want that in kind of a "workplace". His contribution to the support forums and gentoo outweights his personality "flaws". |
WTF? Gods? I have no idea what you're talking about. I do know that I personally am ready to quit Gentoo over developers and their big egos and bad attitudes, and this is after many years here and having been there and done that.
We've been dealing with the Ciaran problem for over a year now, you very obviously are outside of the situation and have no clue what's going on, where are you pulling all this crap out of? I don't understand. |
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zaai
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 175
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:09 am Post subject: |
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*sigh* okay no flamewar please  . I just wanted to get a useful document back online.
Lets all chill out and have a drink.
I'll toast on all the Gentoo devs and their contributions. Cheers! 
_________________
* most bugs can be reduced to either dependency or state *
Athlon64 X2 4800+ on Asus M2N SLI deluxe with 4GB Dual channel
video nVidia GForce 7300 GS 512MB (snail); xorg-7.2
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petrjanda
Veteran
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: Brno, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | | petrjanda wrote: | | avenj wrote: | It's true that he doesn't have access to dev.gentoo.org; regardless he did take it down before he was suspended and around the same time he sent mail to the dev list insulting a fellow developer outright, and last I heard he also pulled it from his own personal website. Coupled with the note he left on his devspace that would seem to indicate pulling the doc was more an attempt to get people irritated at devrel than anything else.
plasmaroo is working on it: http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/ciaran-the-doc-temporary-mirror-until-I-fully-fix-this-into-something-usable/ |
Tell me you never insulted/attacked anyone verbally when you got angry it gets over your head and you arent cooling down, and it will be just. It seems to me you guys are trying to be these "gods" that are perfect in every way. Yes he insulted a number of devs, im not diminishing what he did, and perhaps if you ignored him for a while instead of suspending him he would maybe even say "sorry buddy i overreacted", but not this way because right now its quite possible you guys will be allinated to each other for a quite a while and you dont want that in kind of a "workplace". His contribution to the support forums and gentoo outweights his personality "flaws". |
WTF? Gods? I have no idea what you're talking about. I do know that I personally am ready to quit Gentoo over developers and their big egos and bad attitudes, and this is after many years here and having been there and done that.
We've been dealing with the Ciaran problem for over a year now, you very obviously are outside of the situation and have no clue what's going on, where are you pulling all this crap out of? I don't understand. |
I didnt mean you personally and sorry for the "gods" thing, i didnt know he does it all the time -> And yeah im an outsider, and i have no clue whats going on, all i am saying is how i would solve it -> just ignore them. The rule is if people with big egos come together, a little good comes out of it because they will argue over each other all the time, let them argue, bite, cripple, suck each others dicks and what not untill they quit themselve(because they do not get the attention they want), while you are ignoring them.
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There is, a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be no escape from this here that is born, become, made and compounded. - Gautama Siddharta |
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Frelon
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 149
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:16 am Post subject: |
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We all (almost) don't know what append, but the question is :
does in excluding Ciaran, the Gentoo project will move faster and get his quiteness back.
The answer is not obvious, I agree, and every project need rules if you don't want anarchy.
But computing is a world apart and rules are made to be interpreted in several ways.
I hope you all made the right choice in a collegial consulting (damned 60 days it seems to be a great deal !)
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Fat Bastard
n00b
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I'd rather have more "pricks" like ciaranm developing Gentoo, than the usual clowns whom think QA is not for real programmers.
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Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. - Dijkstra |
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asimon
l33t
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 979
Location: Germany, Old Europe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| It happens in all big enough projects. I've seen such quarrels in KDE, GNOME, Kernel, Debian, Red Hat, some computer game companies, you name it. And even Gentoo had the one or other frustratet developer quit before. From time to time developers emerge who just can't work in a harmonic way with the team, or vice verca. Usually it ends with a frustrated developer leaving the project. As sad as it is, especially if the respective dev is a good one, the project as a whole is better served the less time is bound in such needless fights. |
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | Ciaranm was suspended for 60 days for abusive behavior.
More information will be available to devs and the general public in the near future; right now devrel is working on collecting permission from complaining parties to make their complaints public and bring some transparency. |
Ciaranm and abusive behavior? no, i cannot believe this. 
but seriously, i do find it kinda strange to wipe out documentation, because he has a fight with the devs. after all it won't be the devs, that suffer from such an action! |
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | I do know that I personally am ready to quit Gentoo over developers and their big egos and bad attitudes, and this is after many years here and having been there and done that.
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i'd rather have one dev leave, who has troubles working in a team (no matter how "good" he is), than having various devs quit, because they are fed up with getting insulted frequently!
just my 0.02 . |
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ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: |
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For those who dont know ciaranm has a decent contribution to vim.org with various scripts.
And yes,although he can be a really prick sometimes,at least i remember the case with Lovechild who was the cause of his ban,from the other side his input was occasionally wise and a valuable source of information.
One second chance for him would be a wise move or a new role,like e.g the man who will bridge the gap between the dev team and the gentoo community,he always had a good interaction with gentoo users. |
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asimon
l33t
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 979
Location: Germany, Old Europe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| ag_x wrote: | | One second chance for him would be a wise move or a new role,like e.g the man who will bridge the gap between the dev team and the gentoo community,he always had a good interaction with gentoo users. |
The problem in most similar cases which I saw is that the involved egos are usually very big (a reason why such situations errupt at all) and most of the time the respective developers don't want or take a "second chance". We will see ... Gentoo development goes on, so or so. The more everyone helps the better. It may sound very hard but in open source projects devs come and go (which doesn't imply that I want him to go or stay, I have no insider knowledge and thus no strong opinon on his person).
Regarding giving him the role "the man who will bridge the gap between the dev team and the gentoo community" I am against everyone who has the habit to affront people and can't stay cool in headed discussions or flame wars. Not that my opinion matters here but I think every project is well adviced to choose people for such public roles very very carefully. |
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asimon
l33t
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 979
Location: Germany, Old Europe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| ag_x wrote: | | And yes,although he can be a really prick sometimes,at least i remember the case with Lovechild who was the cause of his ban |
Sorry to contradict you but the reason why you get banned are because of what YOU do and not what other people say to you. IMHO if someone was banned because Lovechild taunted him, I am absolutely against to say "it was Lovechild fault".
| ag_x wrote: | | from the other side his input was occasionally wise and a valuable source of information. |
Yes, but the problem is no matter how valuable your contributions are, if you are a "real prick" in the end you scare other contributers away, destroy the fun other people have contributing, and damge the projects public image. |
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mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ag_x wrote: | For those who dont know ciaranm has a decent contribution to vim.org with various scripts.
And yes,although he can be a really prick sometimes,at least i remember the case with Lovechild who was the cause of his ban,from the other side his input was occasionally wise and a valuable source of information.
One second chance for him would be a wise move or a new role,like e.g the man who will bridge the gap between the dev team and the gentoo community,he always had a good interaction with gentoo users. |
He's gotten a few second chances, or at least thats what ive heard. |
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playfool
l33t
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 688
Location: Ã
rhus, Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | Ciaranm was suspended for 60 days for abusive behavior.
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/me opens a beer, this calls for celebration |
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smoked
n00b
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| asimon wrote: | | Yes, but the problem is no matter how valuable your contributions are, if you are a "real prick" in the end you scare other contributers away, destroy the fun other people have contributing, and damge the projects public image. |
You just summed up what would have probably become a long post from me into one sentence. Thank you for saving me the typing. |
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spb
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2135
Location: Cambridge, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| asimon wrote: | | Yes, but the problem is no matter how valuable your contributions are, if you are a "real prick" in the end you scare other contributers away, destroy the fun other people have contributing, and damge the projects public image. |
The only problem comes when that one person's contributions are more valuable than those of the people he's driving away, and when his departure causes other valuable contributors to quit. It's a grey area.
Not that this was necessarily the case here (I don't know exactly how many people were thinking of quitting, etc), but it's close. |
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ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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i cant really argue with you all,for that matter.
My main objection with all this situation,is that i strongly believe that eveyone has his own proper role in a project ( a vital obligation of a decent managment ),and its not really helpful to divide things,and... like it or not he (with all his personal flaws) was an important ring in the gentoo chain.
On a side not,we all see day by day that the whole gentoo project,despairingly needs new inspiration and maybe a new leader.
Is it just me who thinks this way?
Note:I m not really with ciaranm,i personally get pissed of with him in a few cases,but what really concerns me is gentoo future,and i would like to see very soon a sign of a hope. |
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dsd
Developer
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 2162
Location: nr London
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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having a single leader didn't work out and held us back. things are much smoother now that there is no dependence on any one person.
in terms of leadership, you need not worry. we just elected new trustees and soon will be voting on a new metastructure organisation. we're 'evolving' and figuring out whats best for us.
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ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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With respect to you Daniel.
In my opinion it depends on the kind of leadership,but...
I will trust your input,about how Daniel Robbins "held the project back" and so its dangerous to trust another one again,no matter if i agree with it or not.
But dont you think that,at least there has to be one gentoo *representative* to the outside world,
and one *intermediate* to interact with the rest of the gentoo community?
I mean the kind of job that Blake Ross and Asa Dotzler doing for Mozilla foundation,respectively.
| Quote: |
...we just elected new trustees and soon will be voting on a new metastructure organisation... |
Well thats great,or at least it looks great,but how the hell we suppose to know that?
Do you think in the dev team that the simple gentoo user has nothing to do or offer to these critical
desicions?
So whats the difference from the previous "one man show" leadership,then?
Prove me wrong. |
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meax
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 88
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ag_x wrote: | But dont you think that,at least there has to be one gentoo *representative* to the outside world,
and one *intermediate* to interact with the rest of the gentoo community? |
Just FYI, there was a discussion here about this recently:
Does Gentoo need a face?
| Quote: | | Well thats great,or at least it looks great,but how the hell we suppose to know that? |
Mailing lists, probably gentoo-dev and gwn is what you want?
meax
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Bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful. |
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dsd
Developer
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 2162
Location: nr London
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: going miles off topic |
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sorry, i didnt mean my comments against daniel robbins to sound agressive. to elaborate a little more, he had a workload so big that no single person could realistically handle.
| ag_x wrote: | | Quote: |
...we just elected new trustees and soon will be voting on a new metastructure organisation... |
Well thats great,or at least it looks great,but how the hell we suppose to know that? |
go to www.gentoo.org and read the 4th article from the top. if/when a new metastructure organisation is decided, you'll see a similar article about that.
| Quote: | Do you think in the dev team that the simple gentoo user has nothing to do or offer to these critical
desicions? |
voting for trustees was done by "foundation members", that is, developers with a year or more of membership. the vote was not open to newer developers nor users. however, the election stages were public, on the gentoo-nfp mailing list.
as for user input about our structure and meaning in general, sometimes it can be useful, but a lot of the time it can be way off. typically, people can have good opinions on how things should be ideally, but have no experience in a similar situation, aren't developers, and don't know much about how things have worked in the past or present. on the other hand, if you do have professional experience in managing large communities and the relationships inside them, or have a background in PR, and want to help out, please send me an email. your involvement could be quite beneficial.
anyway- this is going miles off topic. can i suggest that you open another thread to continue this - it might be a beneficial discussion, but here isnt quite the place.
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TheChuckster
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Good developer. Bad person. |
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