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mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jhuebel wrote: | I just wanted to throw in a point that's been missed over the last several replies. ferringb has done a great job discussing the reality of the current situation, but there still this: Developer Relations was considered by Ciaran as an incompetent group, partly because we only ever gave him unofficial warnings (via private discussion in IRC). Personally, I feel like we were doing him a favor (at devrel's expense) by not issuing official warnings in the past. Since his behaviour hadn't improved, the members of Developer Relations decided that the time had come to give Ciaran an official warning. A subsequent email (around 24 hours later) provided Ciaran with a few examples to show the behaviour that Developer Relations was referring to in our warning.
But the warning was not the suspension. He was still a developer and would have had no further action taken against him if he had only played nice with the rest of the developers. Instead, he chose to insult a developer on the gentoo-core mailing list. So he was suspended. It's a cut and dry case. Even it weren't Ciaran-- someone with a history of abusing other developers-- and even if the warning hadn't been issued to him, his comments would not have been tolerated, just as they weren't tolerated by other developers in the past.
That this has become a political free-for-all is disappointing. Especially since Developer Relations' hands are tied when it comes to discussing the specifics of an incident publicy. This is not to save face, but to show courtesy to the public and the developers involved in the dispute. Developer Relations is more than willing to accept any constructive criticism that is given (see the gentoo-devrel mailing list for the on-going discussion of devrel procedural changes). We're also required to be tough skinned enough to weather unfair criticism, since we're bound by etiquette to respond tactfully, politely and with the well-being of all our fellow developers and the user community in mind.
Thanks for the many replies to this thread. If you have any suggestions for Developer Relations to consider, you are encouraged to read the thread on the gentoo-devrel mailing list to get up to speed.
Jason Huebel
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead |
Some suggestions? Sure. Dont even need to actually look at the thread. There should be no such thing as an unofficial warning. As its clear that devrel has considerable power, all their actions with the developers, especially those in respect to discipline, should be well documented. This need not be publicaly avaible, but if when this thread got out of hand, a proper list of problems and the warnings given was produced, we would have no problems. Just seems like devrel, is to be completely honest, a little disgusted at the users for trying to peer into their personal fifedom |
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nixnut
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | Gentoo is far too big to be run like some amateur consortium, decisions need to be made and we, the users, should be informed. |
Right, show us your service contract and I'm sure something can be worked out. 
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Vanquirius
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtyepic wrote: | | don't you find something wrong with the fact that we (the users, generalized) had to first find out about all this through a completely unrelated post on the forum? |
Not really: the issue is still fairly recent. When something was needed from him in this thread, the answer was given 7 minutes later by avenj. This is not hiding stuff.
| Quote: | | it's like you (the developers, generalized) didn't even give a rat's ass about us one way or another to even bother mentioning it. |
If it makes you feel better, I care about you
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tsunam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanquirius wrote: |
If it makes you feel better, I care about you |
Feel the brotherly love! Its time for a group hug 
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Vanquirius
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| tsunam wrote: | | Feel the brotherly love! Its time for a group hug |
That's what I'm talking about! 
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ebrostig
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't care less if there are animosity between ciaranm and DevRel. That is their problem.
Setting all the controversy aside and reading ciaranm's page linked in the first post in this thread, he does raise quite a few important issues and I don't feel that they have been taken seriously enough. I work in a huge organization with 1000's of developers working on a single product, and when I read ciaranm's page with issues, I could easily see how much of a problem commit access can cause. It doesn't seem to be any form of QA on a new ebuild PRIOR to it beeing committed.
Bottom line is: I'm more concerned about the quality of Gentoo than I'm concerned about ciaranm.
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ferringb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| ebrostig wrote: | | Setting all the controversy aside and reading ciaranm's page linked in the first post in this thread, he does raise quite a few important issues and I don't feel that they have been taken seriously enough. |
Part of it (imo) is that the examples he's raised aren't totally valid, nor is the problem as horrid as he paints it. My opinion mind you. QA could be better, but that's a process, namely one of experience. Technological solutions (repoman checks) won't solve it from where I'm sitting, since if they were a magic bullet, repoman would've done the job already.
| ebrostig wrote: | | I work in a huge organization with 1000's of developers working on a single product, and when I read ciaranm's page with issues, I could easily see how much of a problem commit access can cause. |
Devils advocate; with 1000's of devs, you probably have the resources to do secondary (triplicate?) reviews of all commited code. Further bit of nastyness, checking over an ebuild can be extremely complex (don't know why I'm stating this to you, iirc you were the peep doing gentoo + oracle once upon a time).
One thing to note is that reviewing of code changes in my opinion (assuming codebase is sane) is a bit different beast then reviewing ebuilds. Codebase changes, you've got definied in/out of the changes; ebuilds, moreso, packages, have a rather massive range of ways they can fail, which I'd posit is larger then reviewing changes of a fellow dev.
Kind of weird ass point there, and probably explained badly. Reviewing someones changes to a func/class, the scope of the problem and changes to be considered is (typically I'd state) smaller then the equivalent checking over of a newly commited ebuild- new ebuild, the package moreso, can be a simple script, or a massive beast like xorg. Point being, the possibility for screwups to slip through is a fair bit larger from where I sit, which is part of the reason we have our keywording as we do. Or I'm just rambling off nonsense. 
| ebrostig wrote: | | It doesn't seem to be any form of QA on a new ebuild PRIOR to it beeing committed. |
Well, technically repoman is a form of QA. Forget about repoman however, what you're implying here is that ebuilds are commited without being tested, which I posit as being pretty much false. Tested for all possibilities? Unlikely, since the possibilities of what can go wrong for packages are massive (this is why the ~arch bit and p.mask exists after all). Tested such that the commiter believes it to be working for others? Yes. If you're hitting ebuilds that are flat out broke, bug 'em, if you're hitting fresh ebuilds that are flat out horked, bug 'em and email QA if it's a repeated affair with a particular dev.
My take? QA needs a bit more teeth, I've said it for a while now. That said, I don't share the belief/view that the tree is a god awful wasteland of haphazard commits and broken ebuilds. Things do break in a user visible way (bugs.g.o is proof of that), but that's kind of an expected result of the minimal lag aspect of our tree.
Basically, you can't know for a fact it's going to work perfectly on someone elses box without testing, which is where ~arch comes in.
[edit] Ebrostig, your comments about commit access could be viewed as suggesting locking down areas of access for devs. If I'm reading it correctly, doubt it will improve anything in terms of QA, aside from the occasional screwup of a dev commiting in an area they would lack access to. General stupid mistakes still will occur, cvs acl's would just limit the set that a particular dev can screwup in, while adding a lot of extra overhead for doing fixes here and there. If a base dev commited a horked eutils (example), and no base herd dev's were around, it would mean user visible horkage on a large scale till a base herd dev commited a fix, or more likely, Infra or myself go and turn off cvs->rsync prior to horkage being visible. |
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ebrostig
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ferringb wrote: | | Lot of wise and interesting stuff... |
Yes, I'm an Oracle man
I think, based upon your information and others in this thread, that the problem is probably somehwere in the middle of what ciaranm says and you (devrel/QA) says.
I know, as everyone else in the business does, that you can not test for every possible use, the product would never be released if that is the case.
One of the things I have learned, is that when you fix a bug, create a test for the same bug. This may seem very extreme and too much, but experience after 20+ year in the business is that sometimes old bugs resurfaces due to further code work in the same area and those often goes unnoticed and when hit, often tends to be answered simply as "Fixed in version X.Y" With a test for the bug, a QA test run before commit of a bugfix would pick up those cases. Not every bug needs this, but any bug with codefixes do. The problem ofcourse is that regression testing tends to take up quite some time, but sometimes that time is well spent.
I don't advocate doing very rigorous testing of each ebuild, but there should be some basic testing that has to be signed off on before commiting ebuilds. At least to the level were the new/modified ebuild actually builds on all supported platforms for the ebuild and that it do not break other installed packages etc.
A middle of the road approach, some testing prior to committing, not a full regression test.
Nobody wants to test something to death, but more or less untested ebuilds are dangerous and spending some time on testing will pay off.
When all of that is said, I would also like to add that I have not had many bad experiences with ebuilds. I tend to run with ~arch flag and I am prepared for some stuff to break. Part of the fun for me, but I see the issues when you try to run a stable system in some form of production. All in all I would say that the Gentoo developers are pretty good and delivers a great product despite minor issues. Thanks devs!
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ferringb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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First off, lovely fullmetal quote (been a while since I've thoguht of it)
| ebrostig wrote: | One of the things I have learned, is that when you fix a bug, create a test for the same bug. This may seem very extreme and too much, but experience after 20+ year in the business is that sometimes old bugs resurfaces due to further code work in the same area and those often goes unnoticed and when hit, often tends to be answered simply as "Fixed in version X.Y" With a test for the bug, a QA test run before commit of a bugfix would pick up those cases. Not every bug needs this, but any bug with codefixes do. The problem ofcourse is that regression testing tends to take up quite some time, but sometimes that time is well spent.
I don't advocate doing very rigorous testing of each ebuild, but there should be some basic testing that has to be signed off on before commiting ebuilds. At least to the level were the new/modified ebuild actually builds on all supported platforms for the ebuild and that it do not break other installed packages etc. |
Well... you're talking about defining regression tests for packages (presumably), which is a huge undertaking, something that upstream would probably do if it were easy to pull off (this is assuming they value testing)
So... regression testing gets nasty, although I'd suspect tinderbox tests are one route, 'cept the possible set of versions the package deps on (nevermind if deps can be swapped via a virtual) gets rather massive, making it hard.
Other aspect is that doing forced compile tests only would force a test of that commiters env, something they should've done already (note the 'should'). Further, repoman is in no state to have a feature of that size tacked into it, although repoman needs a good enema/cleanup anyways, so ignore that fact.
Curious, what about FEATURES="test|maketest" ?
Dunno, for me it kind of comes down to the fact that at commit time, there really isn't any easy way to force sanity checks beyond repoman's usual set (metadata, manifest, digest, and ebuild checks). Requirement has always been something along the lines of "don't be an idiot, test before commiting"- I'm not sure if there is a way to enforce that however, or slip in actual build checks prior to commit. Stable keywording peeps probably would kill anyone who added that feature though, since it would make keywording kernels/kde massively painful
| ebrostig wrote: | | Nobody wants to test something to death, but more or less untested ebuilds are dangerous and spending some time on testing will pay off. |
Same arguement we've used everytime people request we just automatically slip ebuilds submitted via bugs.g.o into a tree/repo. The ebuilds that do make it into the tree are required to be tested by the commiter; I'm not really sure how (this is beyond the reg. test bit above) verification of that can be added, aside from automated tinderbox builds of our tree, which probably won't scale well- both in # of possible permutations due to use flags, and the fact we have 9000+ packages and that number doesn't seem inclined to decrease.
| ebrostig wrote: | | All in all I would say that the Gentoo developers are pretty good and delivers a great product despite minor issues. |
Liar, we're the worst kind of so and so  |
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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some good ideas there ebrostig, what about, instead of having 2 trees, having a third "ultra stable" for those who do use Gentoo for production. Perhaps having it on a 3 month automatic cycle so after a package has been in stable for 3 months it is automatically put in ultra-stable for use.
As we have ~ as arch what about + for ultra?
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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GLEP 19?
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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no, no, no. Thats completely different 
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Genone
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | some good ideas there ebrostig, what about, instead of having 2 trees, having a third "ultra stable" for those who do use Gentoo for production. Perhaps having it on a 3 month automatic cycle so after a package has been in stable for 3 months it is automatically put in ultra-stable for use.
As we have ~ as arch what about + for ultra? |
This is getting very OT for this thread now, but anyway:
I don't think adding a third branch would help for stability for a number of reasons. Mainly because most bugs hitting stable are caused by certain combinations of packages (see recent busybox issue), not just individual packages, so those bugs are just as likely to hit your new ultra stable branch, probably even more so if you're automating this as you proposed. Also this will likely result in reduced test coverage overall as you have to test more often instead, part of the added maintenance.
Really, for production systems you don't want a moving tree, so GLEP 19 is the right direction, I'm pretty sure Erik will agree with me here. |
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cokey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Genone wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | some good ideas there ebrostig, what about, instead of having 2 trees, having a third "ultra stable" for those who do use Gentoo for production. Perhaps having it on a 3 month automatic cycle so after a package has been in stable for 3 months it is automatically put in ultra-stable for use.
As we have ~ as arch what about + for ultra? |
This is getting very OT for this thread now, but anyway:
I don't think adding a third branch would help for stability for a number of reasons. Mainly because most bugs hitting stable are caused by certain combinations of packages (see recent busybox issue), not just individual packages, so those bugs are just as likely to hit your new ultra stable branch, probably even more so if you're automating this as you proposed. Also this will likely result in reduced test coverage overall as you have to test more often instead, part of the added maintenance.
Really, for production systems you don't want a moving tree, so GLEP 19 is the right direction, I'm pretty sure Erik will agree with me here. |
Yeah, me saying it wasn't GLEP 19 was a joke, thats why the embarrassed smiley
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rhill
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| psyqil wrote: | Two questions:
1. If this had happened to any dev that hadn't posted here quite regularly, who would have cared?
2. Isn't it a good thing that devs develop instead of idle on the forums? If you're interested in them, why don't you join the gentoo-dev mailing list or #gentoo-dev on freenode. I can understand that most of them don't want to read all that incoherent rambling that makes up a good part of the forums sometimes... |
1. no, i wouldn't have cared if it had been some random asshat i never hear of. which was sort of my point (or close enough that i can bend it a little), that the devs could try to be a little more involved in the community.
2. i think it's important that they have an idea of the audience they're developing for. if bugzilla is the only interface you have to your userbase, then yes, bugs get fixed, but what about the opinions, ideas, collaboration, design choices, use cases, and just plain feedback you would miss out on? no one files bugs that say "the new preferences panel is nice but does it have to be hot pink?" (at least not in Gentoo ).
i know it's dumb to expect that every dev be a forum regular, or even to keep up on them. but like, stay in touch, or something.
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ferringb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| dirtyepic wrote: | | i think it's important that they have an idea of the audience they're developing for. |
*cough* this is subject for another thread (as genone said, this is meandering a bit), but devs mostly develop for themselves; eg, they're scratching their own itch- whether something bugging them, interest in a problem, paid to do so, or interest in helping out others (assuming the other 3 reasons don't nudge them to do so). Why point that out, when it's what you sort of said? Question of focus, and while their intentions may line up with what a user wants, that doesn't mean they're modus operandi is doing exactly what the userbase requires.
Sharing the effort of creation/maintenance with userbase (and the fruits of it) is a bit more accurate imo
| dirtyepic wrote: | if bugzilla is the only interface you have to your userbase, then yes, bugs get fixed, but what about the opinions, ideas, collaboration, design choices, use cases, and just plain feedback you would miss out on?
..snip...
i know it's dumb to expect that every dev be a forum regular, or even to keep up on them. but like, stay in touch, or something. |
I'm an irc and occasional email monkey personally. Forum's are too slow for rapid interchange of ideas imo, email is only slightly better. Discussing an idea, usually prefer to pick their brain with minimal lag (which irc allows).
Personally, unless it's a very specific discussion (no OT posts), fleshing out an idea in a forum thread is a bit painful from where I sit; you can't filter out the crap posts, and you're bound to the forums display. Email/irc doesn't really suffer those restrictions.
Thoroughly offtopic however |
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cokey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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A lot of people use these forums though, dont you think you are missing out on anythng by neglecting them?
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ferringb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | A lot of people use these forums though, dont you think you are missing out on anythng by neglecting them? |
Not really. If it's important, it'll jump from the forums to another medium (just the same as something in the ml/bugs will result in discussion here). Question of time also. Either spend all your time trying to absorb stuff from each medium, or figure "screw it, that's impossible" and use whatever is most efficient and go do whatever it is you would be doing...
Also... a lot of people use more then just forums, so you're not totally missing out. Not denegating the forums, just don't have as much time as I'd like for 'em. |
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cokey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | A lot of people use these forums though, dont you think you are missing out on anythng by neglecting them? |
Question of time also. Either spend all your time trying to absorb stuff from each medium, or figure "screw it, that's impossible" and use whatever is most efficient and go do whatever it is you would be doing... |
or have a few people who like to use the forums checking and reporting anything that may be considered useful? I agree with you that 99% of ideas here are a bit hairbrained (or unworkable due to the lack of knowlege of gentoo's inner workings) but there will be some developers who like to use the forums and part of their job could be checking on that and asking questions about the ones which maybe considered for future work.
I suppose the easiest way for developers to check the forums is to have a specific category for it, an "Ideas for Gentoo" forum? Then all devs would need to do is scan through and ask questions.
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dsd
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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its unrealistic for the "normal" to developers to visit the forums, there is just too much noise.
i think Stuart put it well in his talk at the Gentoo UK 2004 meeting, "Life is too short to read the Gentoo Forums"
i see it as part of my responsibility (as a member of the user-relations project) to read the forums (and other community parts) and to pick up valuable feedback to pass on to the more appropriate developer mediums (i.e. filing bugs). but i dont get much time to do this and i tend to focus on existing problems rather than new ideas.
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nevynxxx
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dsd wrote: | its unrealistic for the "normal" to developers to visit the forums, there is just too much noise.
i think Stuart put it well in his talk at the Gentoo UK 2004 meeting, "Life is too short to read the Gentoo Forums"
i see it as part of my responsibility (as a member of the user-relations project) to read the forums (and other community parts) and to pick up valuable feedback to pass on to the more appropriate developer mediums (i.e. filing bugs). but i dont get much time to do this and i tend to focus on existing problems rather than new ideas. |
Also isn't there already an "Idea's for Gentoo" forum, it's just called at bugs.gentoo.org??
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rhill
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:35 am Post subject: |
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thanks brian. you've given me an insight into the dev mindset that i think has answered my question. if that's the mentality the average developer goes about their work with, then i think that it's inevitable we end up with the situation as it is now. i'm not knocking it, mind you. i'm not one to tell people how they should be thinking. i think i might do things a bit differently, but of course it's easy for me to say that from out here in userville.
i personally enjoy working from the forums (or mailing lists which are basically the exact same thing) because it causes people to consolidate their ideas into a tangible form. i can't count how many times i've started a post about some problem i'm experiencing only to end up solving it by attempting to describe it. IRC has always been nothing but a distraction for me. meh. different strokes.
anyways, the forum was just one example of user/dev relations, and i agree it's high volume and unfocused. let's forget i mentioned it.
| Quote: | | Also isn't there already an "Idea's for Gentoo" forum, it's just called at bugs.gentoo.org? |
do you honestly believe that? where do you think more ideas get discussed, in the forum, or in bugzilla? bugzilla is for bugs and enhancement requests. it's where you go after you've talked out your idea in the forums or irc to see if it's retard^Wworkable or not.
anyways, i don't think a new forum (literally or metaphorically) is a solution, or even that there is one to be honest.
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cokey
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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i hate to piss on the developers proverbial bonfire here but these forums are the best place to gauge ideas, as and respond to questions, how so many of you can completely shut yourself off is beyond me...
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Vanquirius
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtyepic wrote: | | if that's the mentality the average developer goes about their work with, then i think that it's inevitable we end up with the situation as it is now. |
[csi]Don't make the evidence support your theory, let the evidence tell your theory to you[/csi].
You want to make a point of how devs don't care about users and are not willing to accept our point of view. We do our best, that is all there is to it.
You have your right to bash, however. Just don't think we won't be offended by implicating that we don't care.
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firephoto
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | i hate to piss on the developers proverbial bonfire here but these forums are the best place to gauge ideas, as and respond to questions, how so many of you can completely shut yourself off is beyond me... |
Ummm I'll disagree since I'm pretty sure the majority of users don't get involved with the debates on new ideas that come up here. It's the same old crowd and some new people that end up debating these things and this thread is a perfect example of that plus some comments from devs mixed in.
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