Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
KDE 3.4 in x86?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Desktop Environments
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mad Merlin
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1155

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: KDE 3.4 in x86? Reply with quote

Is there any news on when KDE 3.4 will be moved to stable (more specifically, x86)? From what I've seen, it's been causing a number of issues for some people, is this mainly because of the split ebuilds? I ask because it's been almost 2 months now since KDE 3.4 was officially released, and AFAIK, it usually doesn't take this long for a new KDE build to be moved to stable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ukchucktown
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Charleston, SC

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had any problems running 3.4 of KDE on a Sony Vaio. I've had a few issues with my graphics driver, but KDE 3.4 seems pretty stable. certainly usable. I like the split ebuilds because you can assemble a minimal KDE install without all the bloat. It's a bit of hassle to configure the dependencies correctly using the package.keywords file, but well worth it. I included my latest /etc/portage/package.keywords file showing the applications I have installed and their dependencies. If you want to give it a spin, just create this file and do emerge startkde. You can add essentials like konqueror later. You may have to do some environment updating if you are currently running an old version. When it goes stable, update.

Code:

# KDE packages
kde-base/akode ~x86
kde-base/arts ~x86
kde-base/juk ~x86
kde-base/kcheckpass ~x86
kde-base/kcminit ~x86
kde-base/kcontrol ~x86
kde-base/kde ~x86
kde-base/kdeartwork ~x86
kde-base/kdeartwork-kscreensaver ~x86
kde-base/kdebase ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-data ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-kioslaves ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-startkde ~x86
kde-base/kdegames ~x86
kde-base/kdelibs ~x86
kde-base/kdepim ~x86
kde-base/kdesktop ~x86
kde-base/kdm ~x86
kde-base/khelpcenter ~x86
kde-base/kicker ~x86
kde-base/klaptopdaemon ~x86
kde-base/kmenuedit ~x86
kde-base/konqueror ~x86
kde-base/konsole ~x86
kde-base/kpersonalizer ~x86
kde-base/kreadconfig ~x86
kde-base/kscreensaver ~x86
kde-base/ksmserver ~x86
kde-base/ksnapshot ~x86
kde-base/ksplashml ~x86
kde-base/kstart ~x86
kde-base/kuser ~x86
kde-base/kwin ~x86
kde-base/libkonq ~x86


UK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JackDog
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 297
Location: St. Louis, Missoura

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree its taken a while. Most of the issues I have seen and heard delt specifically with the meta builds. I am not convinced they are a step in the right direction. Everyone I know just uses the regular ebuilds as they seem to "just work" (tm). I would suggest staying away from the meta builds, that much fragmentation is not very friendly with the portage mindset.
_________________
Are you intolerant of intolerant people? Tired of being PC yet?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mad Merlin
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1155

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The meta ebuilds being (similar to) the ebuilds that were used for KDE 3.3 and such? Like kdebase and kdenetwork and so on? I would have thought they'd cause less of a problem, I guess not...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JackDog
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 297
Location: St. Louis, Missoura

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No the metabuilds break down kde more or less by application, not functional area.
_________________
Are you intolerant of intolerant people? Tired of being PC yet?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LaNcom
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 254
Location: Erfurt, Germany

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would have been better to have the functionality of the meta-packages built on an environment variable, like the KDE-standard DO_NOT_COMPILE (like, use that or a similar variable when emerging KDE, and select the meta-packages accordingly) - would be much more user-friendly, but probably harder to do...?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JackDog
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 297
Location: St. Louis, Missoura

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
like the KDE-standard DO_NOT_COMPILE (like, use that or a similar variable when emerging KDE, and select the meta-packages accordingly) - would be much more user-friendly, but probably harder to do...?


I agree. If gentoo really does move to the meta packages as the standard. I will probably start manually compiling KDE or switch distros. /usr/portage/kde-base is a disaster. Since the apps are not named "text-editor" or the like, it is nearly impossible for a new user to decide which application is which, let alone realize dependencies. But then again Gentoo isnt targeted towards newbies to linux/KDE.
_________________
Are you intolerant of intolerant people? Tired of being PC yet?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jengu
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 384

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackDog wrote:
Quote:
like the KDE-standard DO_NOT_COMPILE (like, use that or a similar variable when emerging KDE, and select the meta-packages accordingly) - would be much more user-friendly, but probably harder to do...?


I agree. If gentoo really does move to the meta packages as the standard. I will probably start manually compiling KDE or switch distros. /usr/portage/kde-base is a disaster. Since the apps are not named "text-editor" or the like, it is nearly impossible for a new user to decide which application is which, let alone realize dependencies. But then again Gentoo isnt targeted towards newbies to linux/KDE.


I don't see the problem. Once the split builds are in x86 (stable) then users won't have to worry about the dependencies just like anything else. They'll just emerge startkde, kicker, and konqueror and have a working environment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JackDog
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 297
Location: St. Louis, Missoura

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except that with split ebuilds there are going to be problems nearly every release wrt module dependencies. Some of the apps and frameworks were just not ment to be split up.
_________________
Are you intolerant of intolerant people? Tired of being PC yet?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snowlock
n00b
n00b


Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know when the KDE 3.4 split eBuilds will go stable? Just wondering if there has been any updates
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bsander
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I asked that here recently. Looks like it's going to take another while.. :(
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the reasons I moved to Gentoo was because it's stable packages are relatively up to date, especially for the larger, more popular stuff, and I can easily upgrade to new versions via Portage without the headaches of other distros. New releases of other distros will ship with KDE 3.4 and this fiasco is putting Gentoo behind.

I could always use the KDE 3.4 ebuilds from ~x86 but Gentoo is my main OS and I can't afford to encounter any major problems. I do use ~x86 ebuilds for some things but they're single packages and not major systems like KDE.

The rest of this post assumes that the delay is being caused by the meta ebuilds.

If this is going to be a one off issue then I'll ride it out. If the meta ebuids are going to cause this sort of delay with every release then I suggest they drop the idea. It just doesn't seem worth it if it pushes Gentoo behind other distros IMHO. I was all for the split ebuilds when I first heard about them but I'm rapidly changing my mind.

Is it possible to move the monolithic ebuilds into stable then let the devs work on the split ebuilds? If so I suggest they do this. I also suggest that they concentrate on releasing the monolithic ebuilds before the split ebuilds until all the issues are sorted and maybe even push the plan to move to split ebuilds only with KDE4 back if they haven't done so already.

There's a Gentoo KDE project page that can be reached at http://kde.gentoo.org but it doesn't contain any information about the status of the project. I suggest that this page could be used for news and updates instead of keeping users in the dark. Gentoo users are used to getting the latest software fairly soon after it's released and I for one find this situation frustrating. This frustration is compounded by the lack of information and a couple of issues with 3.3.2 that 3.4 apparently solves (a KMail bug that infuriates the hell out of me for one).

I realise that the Gentoo devs put a lot of hard work into this project and I know they do this in their own time and we get the results for free. As such I make it a point to not moan about Gentoo. I feel that this situation has been mismanaged though and can't keep quiet about it any longer.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arainach
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 609

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE 3.4 is HUGE. Hundreds of Packages, hundreds of Megabytes. To try and test all of that for errors or security flaws takes a LOT of time. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if it took more than a year from release to x86 for KDE 3.4. It's huge, bloated, and difficult to test. It's not like it'll totally crash your system; just run it from ~x86. I did to install it, and nothing bad has happened. I don't use the full monolithic ebuild, but Just paste the following in /etc/portage/package.keywords:
Code:
# KDE 3.4
kde-base/kdebase-meta ~x86
kde-base/kdm ~x86
kde-base/kcontrol ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-pam ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-data ~x86
kde-base/kcminit ~x86
kde-base/kdelibs ~x86
kde-base/arts ~x86
kde-base/ksplashml ~x86
kde-base/ksmserver ~x86
kde-base/kreadconfig ~x86
kde-base/kdesktop ~x86
kde-base/libkonq ~x86
kde-base/kcheckpass ~x86
kde-base/kwin ~x86
kde-base/kpersonalizer ~x86
kde-base/kscreensaver ~x86
kde-base/kdebugdialog ~x86
kde-base/ksysguard ~x86
kde-base/knetattach ~x86
kde-base/khelpcenter ~x86
kde-base/kappfinder ~x86
kde-base/kicker ~x86
kde-base/kdepasswd ~x86
kde-base/kfind ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-kioslaves ~x86
kde-base/kdesu ~x86
kde-base/kxkb ~x86
kde-base/kdialog ~x86
kde-base/ksystraycmd ~x86
kde-base/klipper ~x86
kde-base/kstart ~x86
kde-base/khotkeys ~x86
kde-base/ktip ~x86
kde-base/kate ~x86
kde-base/nsplugins ~x86
kde-base/kdeprint ~x86
kde-base/kdcop ~x86
kde-base/kpager ~x86
kde-base/kmenuedit ~x86
kde-base/kdebase-startkde ~x86
kde-base/drkonqi ~x86
kde-base/konqueror ~x86
kde-base/konsole ~x86
kde-base/kpilot ~x86
kde-base/kontact ~x86
kde-base/libkpimidentities ~x86
kde-base/libkdepim ~x86
kde-base/libkcal ~x86
kde-base/ktnef ~x86
kde-base/certmanager ~x86
kde-base/libkpgp ~x86
kde-base/libkdenetwork ~x86
And then emerge kde-base-meta.
_________________
Gentoo: Stage3 w/ NPTL & udev, gcc 3.4.4 full rebuild
Kernel: 2.6.15-gentoo-r1 w/ 1G-Lowmem Patch
System: Athlon XP 2.2Ghz/1GB Corsair Value/160GB, 250GB WD IDE/128MB GeForce 6800/Sony 17" Trinitron G200 @ 1280x1024x75Hz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arainach wrote:
KDE 3.4 is HUGE. Hundreds of Packages, hundreds of Megabytes. To try and test all of that for errors or security flaws takes a LOT of time. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if it took more than a year from release to x86 for KDE 3.4. It's huge, bloated, and difficult to test. It's not like it'll totally crash your system; just run it from ~x86. I did to install it, and nothing bad has happened. I don't use the full monolithic ebuild, but Just paste the following in /etc/portage/package.keywords:
Code:
Package list snipped

And then emerge kde-base-meta.


You've just highlighted my point. The Gentoo KDE devs haven't had any problems releasing previous versions of KDE in a timely fashion. They start the split ebuild project and stable releases grind to a halt. That in itself tells me that they should carry on releasing KDE as monolithic ebuilds as before and work on the split ebuilds separately. They should switch to the split ebuilds only when all the bugs are out of the system and new versions of KDE can be released relatively quickly.

I know how big KDE is. If your assertion is correct and the KDE devs keep to their schedule other distros will well ahead before we've moved on from KDE 3.3.2 (apparently KDE 3.4.1 is due tomorrow) and I'll have no choice but to switch distro or OS. KDE really is that important to my being able to use my PC. KDE is one of the main reasons I use Linux.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arainach
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 609

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't get it - Gentoo's x86 is supposed to be stable. There hasn't been enoguh time to prove KDE 3.4 stable. The x86 vs. ~x86 tree is one of Gentoo's main advantages over other distros. Only Debian has a stabler branch. If you're not willing to use portage, you shouldn't be using Gentoo. /etc/portage/package.keywords does exactly what you need - allows you to run some packages (like KDE) ~x86 while keeping the rest of your system x86. Use it or stop whining.
_________________
Gentoo: Stage3 w/ NPTL & udev, gcc 3.4.4 full rebuild
Kernel: 2.6.15-gentoo-r1 w/ 1G-Lowmem Patch
System: Athlon XP 2.2Ghz/1GB Corsair Value/160GB, 250GB WD IDE/128MB GeForce 6800/Sony 17" Trinitron G200 @ 1280x1024x75Hz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BitJam
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 2486
Location: Silver City, NM

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll chime in on the "KDE split ebuilds are great" side.

I disagree that the split ebuilds caused a problem. IMO the problem is a clash between the Gentoo way of doing things and the hugeness that is KDE. I've installed the split ebuilds and things went fairly well. A few packages borked and if they were unimportant (to me) I just skipped over them. If these were part of a monolithic ebuild then I would have been SOL.

Some of the problems I have seen (and seen reported by others) have to do with things like which version of automake is needed for which package. To state the obvious, Gentoo distributes source code and instructions inside of ebuild files that tell systems how to do the compiles. Not all Gentooers have identical systems. Different people have different versions of various parts of the make/compile tool chain. It should not be a big surprise that coming up with a set of instructions on how to compile that will work for everyone is a heck of a lot more difficult than just getting something to compile once on one given and known system. Monolithic ebuilds don't solve this problem.

With huge monolithic ebuilds, even getting 99.9% of all of the KDE parts working does not suffice. The user needs it 100% working in order to install correctly. But KDE has many many different packages and we users have many many different systems so getting all the packages working on all the systems can take a long time. In the meantime, most of the packages are already working for most of the users. Therefore the split ebuilds let most people have a working stable KDE 3.4 today. That's why I think the split ebuilds are great.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arainach wrote:
You don't get it - Gentoo's x86 is supposed to be stable. There hasn't been enoguh time to prove KDE 3.4 stable. The x86 vs. ~x86 tree is one of Gentoo's main advantages over other distros. Only Debian has a stabler branch. If you're not willing to use portage, you shouldn't be using Gentoo. /etc/portage/package.keywords does exactly what you need - allows you to run some packages (like KDE) ~x86 while keeping the rest of your system x86. Use it or stop whining.


It's you who doesn't get it. I don't want to use any ~x86 packages. I've found I have to for somethings (e.g. nVidia drivers at the moment) but that doesn't mean I like it. As soon as these packages hit stable I revert to stable for those packages. See, I'm using Portage. One of the choices Gentoo gives is whether to use stable, testing or a mixture. I've made my choice.

There are some of us who consider stable as a sort of mark of quality. If something is in stable then it's safe to use (there have been exceptions but it's the best indicator we have). If it's in testing it probably is but you can't be sure. Saying, and I'm paraphrasing, either use KDE 3.4 from testing or stop whining misses one of my points by miles. I'll say it again, I don't want to take a risk on KDE 3.4 working perfectly on my PC until it hits stable. By saying that I should shut up and just use the testing ebuilds ignores one of the choices that Gentoo provides. I've read comments from devs on these very forums that suggest that mixing stable and testing may not be a good idea.

My other points, that you seem to have ignored, regard whether KDE 3.4 is being held up by the split ebuilds and the lack of information about what's going on. If there was a problem with KDE itself or the monolithic ebuilds and this information was easily available I wouldn't be making these posts. Instead I'd be waiting patiently for the ebuilds to go stable.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arainach
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 609

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE 3.4 has a lot to be tested, and will remain unstable until it's tested. That's the nature of portage. If you want it, then you accept its ~x86 nature. Just because other distros are willing to run untested Window Managers as "stable" does not mean that Gentoo has to. Most Gentoo users consider this a benefit. The Split ebuilds are not holding up testing; the giant size is.
_________________
Gentoo: Stage3 w/ NPTL & udev, gcc 3.4.4 full rebuild
Kernel: 2.6.15-gentoo-r1 w/ 1G-Lowmem Patch
System: Athlon XP 2.2Ghz/1GB Corsair Value/160GB, 250GB WD IDE/128MB GeForce 6800/Sony 17" Trinitron G200 @ 1280x1024x75Hz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BitJam wrote:
I'll chime in on the "KDE split ebuilds are great" side.

I disagree that the split ebuilds caused a problem. IMO the problem is a clash between the Gentoo way of doing things and the hugeness that is KDE. I've installed the split ebuilds and things went fairly well. A few packages borked and if they were unimportant (to me) I just skipped over them. If these were part of a monolithic ebuild then I would have been SOL.


I'm not saying that the split ebuilds aren't a good idea. I'm saying that if they're delaying KDE 3.4 by this much (I refer you my comments on a lack of information) then maybe they should rethink their strategy for KDE 3.4. I've had Gentoo installed for two years and switched it to be my main OS nearly nine months ago (replacing Debian unstable). In that time there haven't been any problems with new versions of KDE, at least not that couldn't be easily fixed.

I understand your point about monolithic ebuild breakage but this is how KDE is released and, as I said, it's worked pretty well up until now. You say that if a single, split ebuild fails you can skip it but if I need the package that failed then I am, as you say, SOL anyway.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arainach wrote:
KDE 3.4 has a lot to be tested, and will remain unstable until it's tested. That's the nature of portage. If you want it, then you accept its ~x86 nature. Just because other distros are willing to run untested Window Managers as "stable" does not mean that Gentoo has to. Most Gentoo users consider this a benefit. The Split ebuilds are not holding up testing; the giant size is.


I'm not after a lecture on how Portage works. I'm criticising the situation based on the (lack of) available information. If you know for a fact that the split ebuilds aren't holding up KDE 3.4 then post that information. The devs haven't had a problem with the monolithic ebuilds in the past (to my knowledge). If they're problems with KDE generally this time around and you have that information then post it.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brullonulla
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 117
Location: bologna

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyfraser33, you're essentially whining because you can't get KDE 3.4 stable x86 Right Now(TM). You know, there's only one way to have what you want: install kde 3.4 ~x86, report bugs and help developers/packagers to have a stable x86 version ASAP. You don't want to do it? Fine, but then stop complaining.

I'm a heavy KDE user, and I'm waiting for 3.4 too. I'd love to see it tomorrow when I sync. But I don't expect it to happen, nor I want it to happen really if it doesn't mean I'm emerging a really stable package. Just for your same reasons -I don't want to emerge ~x86 for essential packages that I heavily use. Too much times (well,not that much...sometimes) I saw and I see "stable" Gentoo packages being unstable or even unable to emerge. See the thread about X lockups to learn that sometimes even stable packages are not so stable.

So I understand you want a stable KDE 3.4. But stable package means tested package. It means something that can be trusted, and can be trusted only by testing. It is plain senseless and unbearable to see you come here and stomp your feet on the floor like a child to have your stable package, if you do nothing to test it, package it, make it available to the world. AFAIK the Gentoo KDE maintainers are not paid for their work. I'd like to help them, but I have not the time, nor the skills, nor the possibility to do it. So I'm in their hands, and I will thank them a lot when they'll give me their work for free. The split ebuilds are cool and add much flexibility to Gentoo, so I support them even if it means a little delay.

I could have understood you if we were talking about a gigantic delay (see for example the aeternal almost-release of Sarge as the new Debian Stable). We're just talking about a couple of months or a little more of delay. It looks absolutely OK to me, given the complexity and the size of KDE. If you can do anything much better, please do it instead of complaining.
_________________
Google is the index to the unwritten Linux manual.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brullonulla wrote:
andyfraser33, you're essentially whining because you can't get KDE 3.4 stable x86 Right Now(TM). You know, there's only one way to have what you want: install kde 3.4 ~x86, report bugs and help developers/packagers to have a stable x86 version ASAP. You don't want to do it? Fine, but then stop complaining.


Oh you're so wrong my friend. Apart from a couple of tongue in cheek comments in another Gentoo group I've been patiently waiting for KDE 3.4 to hit stable just like you and many others. In this thread and a couple of others people are saying that KDE 3.4 is being delayed by the split ebuilds. There's no information from the Gentoo devs. I offered what I think are alternatives that'll bring Gentoo back in line with it's reputation of being pretty up to date. I see this as constructive criticism. I can only conclude that those who accuse me of whining are the sort of people who won't have a bad word said about their beloved Gentoo.

If it was just a case of wanting 3.4 right now I'd install the ~x86 ebuilds or switch distro. Given the track record of the Gentoo KDE devs and my experience of KDE in Gentoo I'm consider a more than two month wait and a total lack of information to be something of joke. I concerned about the course that KDE in Gentoo is taking and I'm expressing that concern. I've searched the bugs database a lot over the last month looking for hints and haven't found anything useful but that could be because unless you know exactly what to look for, like a specific bug, it can be near impossible to find anything.

brullonulla wrote:
So I understand you want a stable KDE 3.4. But stable package means tested package. It means something that can be trusted, and can be trusted only by testing.


Am I not making myself clear here? I agree with you but based on what I've read on these forums the delay is possibly caused by the split ebuilds. For all we know the monolithic ebuilds are stable but the devs are waiting for the split ebuilds to become stable so they can release the lot in one go.

Answer me this. How come other versions of KDE usually appear in stable within a week or two of release but this one's taking months? It could be related to the KDE sources but surely there would be more noise from KDE users on all distros. It just seems funny to me that KDE usually appears pretty quickly but this time, the time that they start with the split ebuilds, it takes months.

brullonulla wrote:
It is plain senseless and unbearable to see you come here and stomp your feet on the floor like a child to have your stable package, if you do nothing to test it, package it, make it available to the world.


All I did was suggest that they should release the monolithic ebuilds if they're stable and leave the split ebuilds for now and that's acting like a child? Or maybe it's because I had the nerve to criticise Gentoo in which case I'll take your comments as those of a zealot. Maybe it's because I don't agree with you 100% in which case you need to learn that people have differing opinions.

brullonulla wrote:
AFAIK the Gentoo KDE maintainers are not paid for their work. I'd like to help them, but I have not the time, nor the skills, nor the possibility to do it.


And I do? If I didn't have rent to pay and I didn't have to put food on the table I'd be a Gentoo dev by now. Because I have to eat and keep a roof over my head I'm not allowed to criticise? And for your information in some of the little spare time I have I've helped the KDE devs a couple of times with a couple of the bugs I've found (it's not much but at least it's something) but I no longer have a spare x86 box to put test builds on, the disk space on my main machine for two Gentoo installs or the money for new hardware. If I didn't need my main PC to be reliable then I'd be running ~x86 and filling bug reports.

brullonulla wrote:
So I'm in their hands, and I will thank them a lot when they'll give me their work for free. The split ebuilds are cool and add much flexibility to Gentoo, so I support them even if it means a little delay.


We're all in the hands of the devs but that doesn't mean we can't complain.

brullonulla wrote:
I could have understood you if we were talking about a gigantic delay (see for example the aeternal almost-release of Sarge as the new Debian Stable). We're just talking about a couple of months or a little more of delay. It looks absolutely OK to me, given the complexity and the size of KDE. If you can do anything much better, please do it instead of complaining.


A lot of people have left Debian over the Sarge delays if some of the mailing lists and newsgroups are to be believed. If you'd bothered to try to understand what I was saying, maybe by asking questions instead of calling me childish, then you'd realise that my complaints are based on what appears to be the devs single minded attitude to bring us split ebuilds rather than KDE 3.4 in monolithic form and worry about the split ebuilds latter.

Rather than debate my suggestions and try to change my point of view you've just spewed forth the same old "we should be grateful for what we get, the devs are always right" type of rhetoric that's spouted at anyone who dares to criticise a FOSS project.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arainach
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 609

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Am I not making myself clear here? I agree with you but based on what I've read on these forums the delay is possibly caused by the split ebuilds. For all we know the monolithic ebuilds are stable but the devs are waiting for the split ebuilds to become stable so they can release the lot in one go.
If there's no information from the devs, then how the hell can you claim that it's the split ebuilds causing it? Moron. And I'm not about to apologize. I usually refrain from insulting people in online debates, but your continued ignorance and egotistical ideas are driving me crazy.
Quote:
Answer me this. How come other versions of KDE usually appear in stable within a week or two of release but this one's taking months? It could be related to the KDE sources but surely there would be more noise from KDE users on all distros. It just seems funny to me that KDE usually appears pretty quickly but this time, the time that they start with the split ebuilds, it takes months.
Because the Gentoo KDE group has gotten better and realized that they actually have to TEST KDE before marking it stable? You can't test something that big in a week. It takes many months.
Quote:
All I did was suggest that they should release the monolithic ebuilds if they're stable and leave the split ebuilds for now and that's acting like a child? Or maybe it's because I had the nerve to criticise Gentoo in which case I'll take your comments as those of a zealot. Maybe it's because I don't agree with you 100% in which case you need to learn that people have differing opinions.
They're NOT STABLE. Get it through your head.
Quote:
And I do? If I didn't have rent to pay and I didn't have to put food on the table I'd be a Gentoo dev by now. Because I have to eat and keep a roof over my head I'm not allowed to criticise? And for your information in some of the little spare time I have I've helped the KDE devs a couple of times with a couple of the bugs I've found (it's not much but at least it's something) but I no longer have a spare x86 box to put test builds on, the disk space on my main machine for two Gentoo installs or the money for new hardware. If I didn't need my main PC to be reliable then I'd be running ~x86 and filling bug reports.
Your excuse for not being able to help debug it is valid; however, if you don't have the time to debug it, you're not exactly a prime candidate for complaining about how it's taking so long to debug it.
Quote:
Rather than debate my suggestions and try to change my point of view you've just spewed forth the same old "we should be grateful for what we get, the devs are always right" type of rhetoric that's spouted at anyone who dares to criticise a FOSS project.
It's not "The Devs are always right", it's "If you don't like it, fix it."
_________________
Gentoo: Stage3 w/ NPTL & udev, gcc 3.4.4 full rebuild
Kernel: 2.6.15-gentoo-r1 w/ 1G-Lowmem Patch
System: Athlon XP 2.2Ghz/1GB Corsair Value/160GB, 250GB WD IDE/128MB GeForce 6800/Sony 17" Trinitron G200 @ 1280x1024x75Hz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dhris
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyfraser33 wrote:

Am I not making myself clear here? I agree with you but based on what I've read on these forums the delay is possibly caused by the split ebuilds. For all we know the monolithic ebuilds are stable but the devs are waiting for the split ebuilds to become stable so they can release the lot in one go.

Well, not that I want to join in an argument, but I run Gentoo and Debian, and Debian Sarge (testing) has not yet seen KDE 3.4 either. As far as I know, Debian is not experimenting with a different package delivery system, so I think it's far from clear that this has been the cause of Gentoo's delay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andyfraser33
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 166
Location: Oxford, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arainach wrote:
Moron.


I got as far as this word and stopped reading. If you're going to resort to insults then it's clear you aren't interested in debating my ideas. What a great advocate for Gentoo you are.
_________________
Andy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Desktop Environments All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum