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ixtow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
/dev/random wrote:

The sad truth is you're barely exaggerating the attitude over here. It's basically all pick-up trucks, SUVs, and everyone's favorite the Hummer around here.

edit: A note before I get flamed. By here I mean the immediate area not all of the USA.


i find this fascination with big vehicles a bit odd. one really has to guess what these folks are compensating for.

i thought the the hummer would be the point where we all said "holy crap, look at what we have become" but maybe we have to wait for a neighbour to come home in a tank for that to happen.

j


I like the Hummer. Not the stupid H2, the original Military Humvee. You can run it on Vegetable Oil and have lower emissions than any Hybrid....

Compensating? Keep the childish phalic agression to yourself.
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ixtow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lolife wrote:
Now, now.. Their prisons are filled to the brim. And they can't start execute every one of them, it would look bad (Mr. Jeb would probably like to, though). What better way is there to bring down the number of criminals? :lol:


Though you're being sarcastic, I agree.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
of course, it is hard to show a cause/effect relationship between this law and the following incident, but where is Columbine?
You are absolutely correct, because there is no relationship. 1st, Columbine happened before this law. 2nd, it occurred to me that it might be a city law, and not state. I forget which.


Florida state pre-empts all local laws on the topic of firearms. Just to let you know...

No smaller government in Florida has any say over it. Tho, many egotistical cops will try to tell you otherwise. I've put them in their place on several occasions. Got one fired and banned from Law Enforcement for it too. (Miami)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdreinhart wrote:
lolife wrote:
Now, now.. Their prisons are filled to the brim. And they can't start execute every one of them, it would look bad (Mr. Jeb would probably like to, though). What better way is there to bring down the number of criminals? :lol:


How about we stop putting people in prison for non-violent drug offenses? Just a thought...

[edit] Does anyone have a link to the actual law under consideration?


Hell, I say we legalize drugs... This prohibition thing is stupid and pointless.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msalerno wrote:
See what these Bushes and their droogies are doing to my country!!!

Actually, I'm kinda glad we have this new law. The other day I was forced to decapitate someone who was attacking me. While I was being attacked, I pulled out my samurai sword (legal per Florida SB 436.2) and chopped off the assailant's head...

Ok, so it wasn't so much of an attack, but he was trying to get my wallet.

Ok, so it wasn't so much that he was trying to get my wallet, but he was trying to get all of my money.

Ok, so it wasn't so much that he was trying to get all my money as it was that he shortchanged me while I was buying a pack of smokes.

DAMNIT!!! I gave him a $20 and he gave me back $2.50!

Was I supposed to wait for him to count down the drawer?

Seriously! It was him or me!


Sword is not legal to carry concealed, and never was.

The rest is so stupid, it's not worth responding to.
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ixtow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
This bill is long overdue. Florida was the first state to pass a concealed carry law and the typical Leftists and Democrats cried the whole "blood in the streets" thing last time and it never happened.


Actually, there are measurable drops in crime that coincide directly with publishing the increasing number of concealed permits that have been issued.

Hmmm...... I thn this "intimidate the bad guys" thing is working out better than the "let them rule us" thing up north....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Facts? Research? You are basing your argument on what? I'm not saying that the data is not out there, but where?


This data is so widely avaialble, there's no point in referencing it.

Do you count on Liberally biased media to spoon-feed info to you? Or do you do research yourself?

It's not hard to find, in fact, it's all over the damn place. The fact that you choose to ignore it is what's really at issue here.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

acasto wrote:
msalerno wrote:

If I am attacked before Oct 1, and I am forced to defend my life by taking another, and as long as I am justified, I wouldn't worry about being prosecuted. Hell, I don't think that the Catholic church would even condemn me.

So where is the progress?




Try an more realistic example that dosn't involve taking someones life, such as Saa posted. Someone punches you, you kick them, you don't get in trouble, where before you would. That's progress.


- Adam


This bill only applies as an extension to the castle clause. As iun, only in your home.

Out at a abr, and someone punches you? You fight back? Police have the ability to call it "mutual combat" and let it lie. That has been on the books for over a century. No cuffing of anyone.

The difference is cops who have too much ego, and not enough interest in the common good. They just want to beat someone to the ground and haul them off. Any excuse will do.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I agree with you, but the article says


Aye, there is the rub!

There's what the "article" said, and what the "law" said. The two things are VERY different.....

The "article" is a bunch of sensationalist horseshit. Documented and proven.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ligne wrote:
so much for turning the other cheek, eh?


I have only got 2 cheeks...

After that, I have my .380
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pitcrawler wrote:
SubTexel wrote:
ligne wrote:
acasto wrote:
Do you have your own personal police that go every where with you in the UK? Or if someone mugs you or starts something with you are you suposed to politely ask them to please wait until the police arrive? Just wondering because the logic of that concept in a dynamic situation that demands immediate attention just dosn't fit.


no, you move away as quickly as you can. or if it's a mugging you comply. in other words, get yourself out of harm's way.

then you take it to the police.

as i said, trying to take the law into your own hands is only likely to make things worse.


Remind me to rob you when I'm in the UK.. Always looking for an easy mug...

:roll:

Anyhow, I'm all for the new law. If you are stupid enough to rape / mug / etc.. a person then you know the consequences of your actions (ie: Being shot, stabbed etc.. By the potential victim..). Sorry, I have no feelings for an idiot that decides to rob me, or whatever. If they pull a knife / gun on me, I'll shoot them. If they hit me, I'll beat the snot out of them, and send them on their way with a nice dose of mace. It all depends on the situation.

Yeah, it's all very well saying that, but if the guy is bigger and stronger than you then they will beat the snot out of you unless you run, and if they pull a gun on you first and see you reaching into your jacket, they will shoot you. If they are pointing a gun at your head I think the safer option would be to put your hands up instead of getting out your gun, even if that would only take a second.


You assume we all carry our weapons "in our jacket?"

I pack mine inside the back waistline of my pants. Oh, you want my wallet you say? Just let me reach back hear and get it for you... Lookie there, that ain't no wallet punk!!

If someone is close enough to grab your wallet, they're close enough for you to grab them too. Let them pull the trigger, just make sure you point their hand away from you, and slide your own gun into the mix.

I've had to do it before. In Saint Petersburg, where I lived for over 20 years. I didn't have to shoot the guy. He saw the stainless Llama pointed at his sturnum, while he fired 4 from his revolver into the air after I grabbed his hand. He decided to give up, and drop his gun. He woulda been dead otherwise.

No one died. I never fired a shot. He didn't get my money or my Wife.

What a nut-job I am...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

acasto wrote:
ligne wrote:
acasto wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
why should you be allowed to punch them?


If they hit you first, why not?



- Adam


so someone else being unpleasant means you can join them? presumably that means you're allowed to break into the house of the guy who burgled and take all his stuff. or throw bricks through your bank's windows when they overcharge you?


What is your deal with these crazy examples? Self-defense is a rather simple concept, that has been applied and understood all throughout history, and even extends outside of our species to animals, and even some plants. But seriously, think about the examples you post, they make no sense.

- Adam


Heard, what's with the nuts?

I'm not going to stand around and get beaten to a pulp either.... If someone is a big enough ass to attack me in the first place, running away just means they'll chase me and do it some more....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
stonent wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
acasto wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
why should you be allowed to punch them?

If they hit you first, why not?

because that makes you just as bad as them, then with your law the other person could argue that HE had been hit first.

That's not a very good argument against protecting yourself.

actually i'd be willing to bet that in this situation, getting away from the attacter is the best idea, not struggling with him


Well, a special exception, just for you...

I'd like to see you run, and get chased by whoever this jerk is.... and let him keep doing it. Just lay there on the ground, get beat to all bloody hell.

Combative assailants are not anchored to the ground like a tree with roots and all.....

When assailed by someone with a weapon, the last thing they want you to do is get away and tell the cops. The KNOW they're doing soemthing bad!

Why do you think almost all carjackings end up with the owner getting killed/severly mangled, even when they comply fully and give in?

Take a few steps away, if they approach again, give 'em hell. I'm not painting a bul's eye on my back after they've made it clear what they would do with one....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dat wrote:
msalerno wrote:


The poilce arrive and take the both of us away.

How would this law help me?
Would it even?


Nope.. Probably not. Where I think this law would help you is if you're walking home from said bar, and someone tries to mug you. You kick him in the nuts, punch him in the face and then call the cops. The cops take him away and NOT you. The law helped you.


Nice thoguht, but we all had this ability before this law. this law hasn't got anything to do with use of force outside the home.

In spite of what the "article" said, try reading what the "law" said.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXCELLENT, I POSTED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THIS THREAD!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i know that self defence isn't new. but encouraging people to stand and fight because, hey, they're in the right, and they don't have to back down, seems to me to be a very bad idea.


Please explain this to me.

No matter how hard I try, I can't come up with a way for putting bad guys in their place (as opposed to letting them overrun society) is bad.....

It's exactly that mentality that has lead to our country being so crime-ridden. "Just do whatever the bad guys say." You hand them the keys to the city! Criminals rule, not law, not the citizens.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's safe to say that ixtow owns this thread. And all that's left to be said is..."I agree with him." Not that there's much to agree with. Most of what he has said is fact. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ixtow wrote:
I'm not going to stand around and get beaten to a pulp either.... If someone is a big enough ass to attack me in the first place, running away just means they'll chase me and do it some more....
If someone is big enough to beat you to a pulp they are hardly goung to catch you :roll: You are just some crazed violent yank gun-lover. The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good

do you have something wrong with posting all of your posts in the same post?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
ixtow wrote:
I'm not going to stand around and get beaten to a pulp either.... If someone is a big enough ass to attack me in the first place, running away just means they'll chase me and do it some more....
If someone is big enough to beat you to a pulp they are hardly goung to catch you :roll: You are just some crazed violent yank gun-lover. The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good

do you have something wrong with posting all of your posts in the same post?


Because it's a bitch to copy & paste all of them and wind up with a two page long post. I don't really blame him...but damn ixtow...I think you got a little carried away. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, you want my wallet you say? Just let me reach back hear and get it for you... Lookie there, that ain't no wallet punk!!


Bravo Ixtow. You can move into my neighborhood any day.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good


So only criminals deserve to live and not law abiding people who own guns?

Why does the left of center crowd have so much compassion for filthy criminals?

A concealed handgun license says many things... You know how to safely handle a gun, you are not a felon, and you're registered with the state.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
ixtow wrote:
I'm not going to stand around and get beaten to a pulp either.... If someone is a big enough ass to attack me in the first place, running away just means they'll chase me and do it some more....
If someone is big enough to beat you to a pulp they are hardly goung to catch you :roll: You are just some crazed violent yank gun-lover. The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good

do you have something wrong with posting all of your posts in the same post?


Hahahahahahahaahaahahahahahahahhaahahahahaha!

How do you expect this law to get more people to die? Have you even the tiniest slice of logic on your head?

What the Leftist Politicians in this article said, and what the law actually covers, are VERY different things.

This law doesn't create anything new. It re-iterates law that already exists. Pretty redundant. What I like about it, is how it brught the desperate liars out int he clear. They've pushed too far this time, and exposed their agenda for the transparent BS that it is.

Presence of firearms in the hands of citizens has had a massive impact on reduction of violent crime. We carry to STOP crime, not cause it. And it works REALLY damn well. Rarely does a legal and responsible gun owner commit a crime with it. Shootings and murders are rarely being comitted by people who bought the gun through legitimate channels. The black mareket weapons are the problem, and the crimianls who buy them that way. Waht law is going to stop that? It's already a black market because it's illegal.... Get a damn clue.

You can assert the contrary all day long, you're just an ass and proving it more thoroughly with every post. You're just another hate-mongering socialist that wants to insult anyone who can prove their idea is better. Grow up already.

Violent Crime as a whole, in the USA, is lower than most other countries on this planet. The UK, Canada, and Australia recently allowed sweeping gun bans, and have paid the price in termendous increases in violence. Many States in the USA have introduced Concealed Carry Permitting (some stupidly restrictive...), but this has resulted in significant reductions in their crime. Places like NY, IL, CA, DC, etc.. are the oes that get all the press. But note, they're also the ones with the most restrictive gun laws. If all gun ownership is illegal, why do they have incredibly high (and rising) "gun crime" and violence? Maybe it's becasue the bad guys don't care what the law says? Gun Control does one thing; paint targets on those who obey it. Be it by giving criminals "carte blanche" to do whatever they want, or by giving political crimianls the tools to discriminate against their opponents in the workplace.

All this law did was bring to the forefront a concept that many people had been convinced was illegal, by the media and leftist politicians. It didn't create anything substantially new. It just reminded people of something they forgot; they have a right to fight back.


Last edited by ixtow on Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaksaga wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
ixtow wrote:
I'm not going to stand around and get beaten to a pulp either.... If someone is a big enough ass to attack me in the first place, running away just means they'll chase me and do it some more....
If someone is big enough to beat you to a pulp they are hardly goung to catch you :roll: You are just some crazed violent yank gun-lover. The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good

do you have something wrong with posting all of your posts in the same post?


Because it's a bitch to copy & paste all of them and wind up with a two page long post. I don't really blame him...but damn ixtow...I think you got a little carried away. :)


Yeah, true, but I have to defend my position from such random and extraneous BS.

It's easier to reply to each steaming heap of poo, in order. With so much of it, keeping it organized in one message would have been even more time consuming.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stonent wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
The more people like you that are dead the better so perhaps the bill is good


So only criminals deserve to live and not law abiding people who own guns?

Why does the left of center crowd have so much compassion for filthy criminals?

A concealed handgun license says many things... You know how to safely handle a gun, you are not a felon, and you're registered with the state.


The sad part is, some states (like Ohio) make the names and addresses public. The perfect tool for discrimination by people like him. There has even been pressure to put their SSN's on the permit, so that any criminal would be able to completely steal their identity right from public record.

Registration never helped solve a crime, as those who do it are the sort preventing crime not commiting it. Find a document that shows anyone citing a criminal case solved or assisted by the registration list. You cant find it. Even NYPD thinks it's a waste of time and money. And they're right. So-caled ballistic fingerprinting too. It's never served a pubic benefit. Just a tool for the left to slander and discriminate against their opposition.

It's all just a way to keep track of the most staunch political opposition to the left's agenda, and seek out ways to ruin their lives and marginalize them. It's no different from requiring Michael Morre to publish his Name, Address, Phone, and SSN in newspapers. I somehow don't think that would bode well for him, with all the enemies he's made.

Florida is one of the best states to live in, as far as gun laws go. It's even better than Texas! Texas requires you to inform a Police Officer if you're carrying if you happen to see one. How dumb is that? Oops, I saw a cop, now I have to walk right up to the guy and say "I have a gun." For no apparent reason at all, other than the law says so... In FL, I don't have to tell them, so they can't use thier political bias against me; they don't even know about it. Well, their computer tells them, but only AFTER they've done their business. Significantly reduces the chancecs of a Leftist Cop screwing you just because he knows you voted the opposite he did. Keeps them honest.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stonent wrote:


A concealed handgun license says many things... You know how to safely handle a gun, you are not a felon, and you're registered with the state.
Not completely true. Although to qualify for a SDA Permit,... you need to prove you have no criminal record,.. that you are familiar with gun control laws,... and you can safely handle a firearm, Unfortunately, the course and test do not fully weed out those that are looking for an excuse to shoot somone.

I have been administering SDA permit courses for about 7 years, and I have recieved a plethra of disturbing questions from participants that show the mentality of some of the people acquiring these licenses.

"If someone is on my property and I want them to leave,... can I shoot them?"
"If someone is assulting me with no weapon, Can I shoot them?"
"If someone purposely hit my car with theirs, that is aggrivated assult, can I shoot them?"

Of course for each, the laws state reasonable force resistance, but it appears that these people are only looking for the easiest scenario that will enable them to pull their firearm. In lessons, I try to emphasize that the concealed weapon should only be used in extreme cases. 99.9% of situations should be handled passively and escelated to policing officials asap. For instance,... you are being mugged, and you are a SDA permit holder: Should you draw your weapon and shoot, or should you simply hand of your wallet. IMHO, the correct answer is to hand over your wallet. IT IS NOT WORTH THE RISK THAT HE IS FASTER AND A BETTER SHOT. And believe it or not,... I have been in that situation, while carrying. Another Scenario is you are at a bank that is being robbed. One,.. you shouldn't have your firearm in a banking institution, ITS A FEDERAL CRIME. Two,... if you do draw your weapon, and someone else is shot, either by you or the criminal,... you can be held accountable for the minimum: Wreckless endangerment, and the maximum, negligant homicide.

The most I can do,... as an instructor, is to educate them as well as possible, and report any persons that I consider a danger wether they pass the tests or not.
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