Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Major reiser4 breakdown
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Unsupported Software
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gentree
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 5350
Location: France, Old Europe

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

superstoned wrote:
btw I have to see the first proof its slower for anything,

try rm -rf on a v large file system like /usr/portage , it takes almost as long as a copy !

ext3 takes about as long as a cursor blink.

On the other hand copying the same file structure is significantly faster on R4.

Apart from that I think R4 is fine. I have used it for portage since early 2004 when it was in beta.

I am just installing a chroot ~x86 gentoo on a spare partition which uses R4 on root as well.

As for some of the features being done on ?370 in hardware, fine. Its interesting to know but has no relevance to my life. It just goes to show that nothing is new .

The japs thought they were smart putting belt final-drives on motorcycles but the Brits did it in 1920.

R4 has served my purposes well. If I had got burnt I might be vermently posting how crap it was.

Anyway, if I was looking for something ultra stable that must _never_ break down I would not choose a distro that is in a constant state of flux with very little backwards compatability either.

My system is super stable , but this distribution takes a lot of maintaining. R4 _once_ required me to copy the fs to another partition and back again when it was still in beta. I'd be six months younger if I could say the same for Gentoo.

That said , its very interesting and great for a test/development system.

I find R4 a good choice for Gentoo on my hardware.

8)
_________________
Linux, because I'd rather own a free OS than steal one that's not worth paying for.
Gentoo because I'm a masochist
AthlonXP-M on A7N8X. Portage ~x86
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
moocha
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5722

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

venkat wrote:
why people are getting mad about reiser4 is that when a filesystem breaks, it takes away all your data.
Not quite accurate. When a file system breaks, it should strive to not take away all your data. In other words, data should always be recoverable with minimal losses of recently commited stuff (with the sole exceptions of hardware or user failure of course). That's why most file systems have some form or the other or built-in metadata redundancy. And that's where Reiser4 falls short so far. I've shot holes into Reiser4 file systems with much more ease than I've ever managed to shoot holes into ext2, NTFS, XFS, ext3, ReiserFS and JFS file systems (listed in decreasing order of stability - FAT32 was the only file system more brittle than Reiser4).
It's got a lot of potential, but anyone entrusting valuable data to it deserves to lose said data as an object lesson.
_________________
Military Commissions Act of 2006: http://tinyurl.com/jrcto

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
venkat
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 110
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moocha wrote:
venkat wrote:
why people are getting mad about reiser4 is that when a filesystem breaks, it takes away all your data.
Not quite accurate. When a file system breaks, it should strive to not take away all your data. In other words, data should always be recoverable with minimal losses of recently commited stuff (with the sole exceptions of hardware or user failure of course). That's why most file systems have some form or the other or built-in metadata redundancy. And that's where Reiser4 falls short so far. I've shot holes into Reiser4 file systems with much more ease than I've ever managed to shoot holes into ext2, NTFS, XFS, ext3, ReiserFS and JFS file systems (listed in decreasing order of stability - FAT32 was the only file system more brittle than Reiser4).
It's got a lot of potential, but anyone entrusting valuable data to it deserves to lose said data as an object lesson.


yes, i agree. i should re-phrase it as "when a filesystem breaks and it takes away all your data people get really mad". i was trying to stress how personal the issue becomes when you lose all your data over a single crash & reboot.

it is a new filesystem. it needs some work. but bashing it as if it is "the" worst thing that's ever happened to filesystems is just harsh IMO.
_________________
http://venkatu.dotgeek.org/blog/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Suicidal
l33t
l33t


Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 959
Location: /dev/null

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

superstoned wrote:
Suicidal wrote:
feld wrote:
but at least admit that under the correct guidance it COULD be something great.


I totally agree but having reiser4 flake out on me is not good for business . There is nothing worse than configuring ACL's on routers and pull out your lappy to test them with tcptraceroute to find the FS has gone south (luckily it was still in the shop on the bench). I also agree people should test the FS but not everyone.

I currently use reiserfs 3.6 on all of my systems and it has been the most stable and almost the most responsive FS I have used on any OS bar none. But still little flake outs like this is proof enough that its not production stable and people that value thier data should steer clear until it matures.

if the possibility of dataloss would make a filesystem not production stable, no filesystem is stable. I've had dataloss with all filesystems I used, so I'd say trust none, and make backups...


True I have had problems with other file systems EXT2, EXT3, REISERFS and XFS, all which were fixable with minimal data loss and there was a logical reason for the error such as a power outage. But never had the same filesystem fail on 2 systems in a 24 hour period for no attainable reason. That is what I call not not production stable.

Could I scour the web and look for resolutions probably, but I have enough to do already without becoming an expert on a fs that I saw no apparent gain from.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jake
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 1132

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
firephoto wrote:
And since you've used the "crappy fs" so much you know exactly how it works right?

Probably not.

:roll:

I've read the code. I've read the design docs. I found a dozen bugs in it before I even tried to compile it. So, uh, yeah, I know how it's supposed to work, and I know how it actually doesn't work.

Did you submit bug reports? If not, why did you read the code? Did you just want to appease your conscience for when you bash reiser4 on the Gentoo forums? Do you feel better than Hans because you found bugs in his filesystem? As far as I know, Namesys has done more to help than Linux community than you ever have. It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you never act on them. If reiser4 is as bad as you say, produce some proof rather than compaining all the time. If you can convince enough people, Hans will be forced to change his filesystem before it's accepted into the vanilla kernel. Or it might never be accepted. It doesn't bother me that your opinions regarding reiser4 are different than mine; what bothers me is that you don't seem to be doing anything other than complaining.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake wrote:
Did you submit bug reports? If not, why did you read the code?

Of course not. I'm not up for the whole "give Hans Ricer money just so that I can tell him his code's broken" thing.

Quote:
As far as I know, Namesys has done more to help than Linux community than you ever have.

Hiiiighly unlikely. Namesys has done sod all to help the 'Linux community'.

Quote:
It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you never act on them. If reiser4 is as bad as you say, produce some proof rather than compaining all the time.

Proof's already out. It's not out in a language your average ricer4 user will understand, but it's out in language that is understood by the people who matter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
firephoto
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 1612
Location: +48° 5' 23.40", -119° 48' 30.00"

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Jake wrote:
Did you submit bug reports? If not, why did you read the code?

Of course not. I'm not up for the whole "give Hans Ricer money just so that I can tell him his code's broken" thing.

Gee I didn't notice the money getting sucked out of my wallet every time I read people reporting problems about reiser4 on the reiser mailing list. I shall keep my wallet safe the next time I visit that public mailing list that has prompt replies from the reiser devs whom don't bash their users.

Quote:

Quote:
It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you never act on them. If reiser4 is as bad as you say, produce some proof rather than compaining all the time.

Proof's already out. It's not out in a language your average ricer4 user will understand, but it's out in language that is understood by the people who matter.

It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is because he can't come up with real world proof and a detailed explanation to why he is so right and the poor stupid user always seems to be wrong. I almost feel guilty that that some "declared crappy by a dev" file system is performing flawlessly and very fast on my portage tree with 99,290 files and 19,184 sub-folders. I can't even begin to express how good it makes me feel to know that you matter and we the user/majority doesn't.
_________________
#gentoo-kde on freenode
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

firephoto wrote:
It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is

Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Archangel1
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 1212
Location: Work

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

So as soon as you use reiser4 it automatically makes you a "daft ricer"?
_________________
What are you, stupid?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentoo_lan
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Archangel1 wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

So as soon as you use reiser4 it automatically makes you a "daft ricer"?


Ciaranm is just tired of trying to explain how broken reiser4 is. I wouldn't use reiser4 myself. I however wouldn't say that everyone who uses reiser4 is a ricer. Granted they are trying to use something that is broken and doesn't do what it is supposed to do (kinda like using insaine CFLAGS). OK, maybe they are ricers.:D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gentree
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 5350
Location: France, Old Europe

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using Gentoo full-time for about 18 months and R4 has been running portage for all but 4 months of that time.

I decided to use R4 (when still in beta) because it seemed to have potential and I wanted to contribute to testing. Sadly I have never had any bugs to report!

I recently tried to break R4 by double-mounting portage and compiling the same package at the same time using a ~x86 in a chroot as well as the main system. I then did emerge -e system on the ~x86 and other emerges on the main system.

All this failed to produce any errors. I am a failed "ricer" !!

If ppl have differenct h/w and see bugs they should report them at least. Unless of course they prefer that the bugs remain so that they have grounds to continue knocking R4.

I have never had any time or data lost due to R4 . I have lost months of my life maintaining a Gentoo system that requires a lot of maintainance effort and every few months gets seriously screwed up by some error or incompatible update in portage.

I think there is a certain ammount of ingenuity and dual standards at play by some of the R4-bashers.

For ppls to get emotive and start name-calling suggests that the issues here are not objective technical ones.

I look forward to R4 reaching a maturity whereby it can be included in the kernel.

For my system it has been very robust.

8)
_________________
Linux, because I'd rather own a free OS than steal one that's not worth paying for.
Gentoo because I'm a masochist
AthlonXP-M on A7N8X. Portage ~x86
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gentree
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 5350
Location: France, Old Europe

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moocha wrote:
venkat wrote:
why people are getting mad about reiser4 is that when a filesystem breaks, it takes away all your data.
Not quite accurate. When a file system breaks, it should strive to not take away all your data.


Not quite accurate. :wink: When a file system breaks you realise how badly _you_ backed up _your_ date.

I lost a parition once , on ext3. It was a pain . The data was not important enough for me to spend the time needed to keep proper backups. I have to live with that choise. I dont post that the fs is crappy or broken. :roll:
_________________
Linux, because I'd rather own a free OS than steal one that's not worth paying for.
Gentoo because I'm a masochist
AthlonXP-M on A7N8X. Portage ~x86
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maximus2000
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 127
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used reiser4 on a test system without any data loss or issue so far. Would I call it stable not but then again what fs really is.
_________________
Thanks
Maximus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
firephoto wrote:
It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is

Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

I agree, but the Reiser4 people are just a subculture of Gentoo and are not to be forgotten about
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ciaranm
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
firephoto wrote:
It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is

Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

I agree, but the Reiser4 people are just a subculture of Gentoo and are not to be forgotten about

Well no, they're obnoxious enough that we can't forget about them. Ignoring them sadly didn't make them go away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
firephoto wrote:
It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is

Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

I agree, but the Reiser4 people are just a subculture of Gentoo and are not to be forgotten about

Well no, they're obnoxious enough that we can't forget about them. Ignoring them sadly didn't make them go away.

do you include love and nitro in that though?
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentoo_lan
l33t
l33t


Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
firephoto wrote:
It feels so good for a dev to belittle the users that make the distro what it is

Let me assure you that the daft ricer crowd are not what makes Gentoo the distro it is. On the contrary, Gentoo is what it is despite the daft ricers.

I agree, but the Reiser4 people are just a subculture of Gentoo and are not to be forgotten about

Well no, they're obnoxious enough that we can't forget about them. Ignoring them sadly didn't make them go away.

do you include love and nitro in that though?


Well Love and Nitro people have begun to tone down a little bit. The maintainers of those patchsets are no longer catering to ricers. They are beginning to take out some of the broken and meaningless patches and trying to create a "better" patchset. I still wouldn't use nitro or love but if they get on the right track in the future I might use them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drysh
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 203
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say some of ciaranm's arguments make sense. But I'm here to test new technologies... This isn't a critical mission server.. This is my home computer, and I have copies of the files in CDs (I hope so). So, cal me ricer if you want, but I'm going for a almost stable, fast and new fs. Yes, just because it's new. I already know what to expect from ext3, and I know some distros that make a good job with the old tools. I want to see new tools, new fs, new... And there is nothing better than Gentoo to test new things.
Two weeks ago, I installed my first Gentoo (from stage 1). Last week I tried with ~x86 and reiserfs, playing a bit with USE_FLAGS. And everything is working fine. Today, I cleared my HD, made the required sacrifices to the gods of computers :) , and prepared myself for a more radical choice for my system. I was planning to use reiser4 for this experiment:
Code:
/dev/sda1    /boot    ext2
/dev/sda2    /        reiser4 (+- 40GB)
/dev/sda3    /home    ???     (+- 60GB)
/dev/sda4             swap

I'm willing to use another file system (one of the new ones)... I'm just not sure which one I should test. Give me ideas and I'll try them. JFS? ZFS? PVFS2 (even without a parallel computer)? It's a P4 HT 2.8 GHz w/ 1GB DDR 400, NVIDIA video, and Intel D865PERL motherboard; I'll use it as my personal computer, so /home will have to be trusted (I won't make backups every day at home), but the rest of the system may be installed again if I have any problem. Ideas? Or should I type mkfs.reiser4 /dev/sda2 and begin my experiment?

Cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drdabbles
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 31
Location: NH, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I'd like to say that it's nice to see the devs trolling the forums for pissing contests with the rest of us. Good feelings. I'd also like to state how nice it is to see a dev with a real live superiority complex. Awesome. I guess it takes all types. However, it you'd like to go back to System 3[679]0...by all means, I promise I won't cry.

~*sigh*~

Anyway, regarding the experimental system, I'd say try comparing XFS with R4. I used R4 for a while in varying situations (from /var to /home, /var, /usr/portage, etc.), and have made a jump to XFS. I never thought I'd switch from Reiser FS's, as I was a die-hard R3.6 usre, but XFS `seems` to suit my needs well. I realise it doesn't have much history in the Linux arena, but it does have a history with Sun systems and has thusly matured.

I'd like to note that the fact that R4 would require a reimplementation of the VFS is both good and bad. Many kernel devs have talked about replaving the VFS, building it out, etc. However, the idea that one project would be at the center of that effort does scare me a bit. A tad too much veto power for any one person, I feel. Like Linus v. Alan in the "olde days", they kept each other grounded and in check.

Anyway, Linux and Gentoo is all about choice. Use any FS you wish. However, because life is unpredictable...you should make backups of some kind. I recently purchased a DLT drive, and am using Bacula on my server at home to backup config files, /home, and email from my IMAP server. All works well and I've even tested the restore capabilities. All important.
_________________
Your Lord and Master,
Foamy

P.S. My minions are strong and will destroy you

Debate, but don't flame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jake
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 1132

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drdabbles wrote:
...I never thought I'd switch from Reiser FS's, as I was a die-hard R3.6 usre, but XFS `seems` to suit my needs well. I realise it doesn't have much history in the Linux arena, but it does have a history with Sun systems and has thusly matured....

FYI, XFS is from SGI, not Sun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
drdabbles
n00b
n00b


Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 31
Location: NH, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake wrote:
FYI, XFS is from SGI, not Sun.


BAH! Struck down by two letters! *lol* I knew it was SGI...but like an idiot I had Sun on the brain. Got to love reading reviews and typing. :oops:
_________________
Your Lord and Master,
Foamy

P.S. My minions are strong and will destroy you

Debate, but don't flame
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Unsupported Software All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum