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Bob P
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sciwhiz007 wrote:
Alright, I removed the hardened USE flag, and I get the exact error once again. I guess the problem is with glibc 20050125-r1. Is it worth a try to revert to 20050125?

i am using normal (non-hardened) GCC 3.4.3 on a variety of x86 boxen and I have encountered ZERO problems with glibc 2.3.4.20050125-r1.

NOT

ONE

PROBLEM.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm....
I guess my question is not a valid one.....
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

southpaw wrote:
I'm using this method to install gentoo over a previous standard gentoo installation.

:?:

Why is there such a need for this?

Also, you're on your own there, if the answer to the above question is what I think it is. :roll:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimchi_sg wrote:
Why is there such a need for this?

It makes sense to me, you want to upgrade to gcc 3.4.3, and recompile your programs with NPTL support. Besides thats really what this installation meathod is to begin with, a reinstallation.
southpaw wrote:
Hmmm....
I guess my question is not a valid one.....
We'll I'll take a stab at it. Really, the stage 1 on stage 3 installation is exactly what you want to do, it's a reinstallation of Gentoo over an existing installation. You take a Stage 3 install, you recompile gcc, glibc....all the way up to recompiling your system. This is done to A) upgrade gcc to 3.4.3-r1 (no longer a 3.4.3 in portage) B) to recompile your programs with NPTL support, and C) fill in the holes created by a regular stage 1. Basically if you are going to upgrade your system in this way, you will have to replace the command emerge -e system, with emerge -e world. Before you run emerge -e world however, run emerge -e libtool, since you are upgrading your gcc version, and you will recieve errors unless it has been compiled with the same gcc profile you are currently using.

Since you are recompiling everything, the only considerations I can think of as far as your /etc/make.conf file goes is don't add any cflags that will make the package binary incompatible with other programs you've already compiled, just for safety reasons :wink: . As far as useflags go, the additional useflags in the tutorial along with your own useflags would be a good starting place. The only thing I would say about the useflags in the tutorial are that pthreads and ithreads aren't really neccessary. Unless you use the nptlonly flag instead of nptl, then glibc will becompiled twice, once with LinuxThreads support and once with NPTL support, regardless whether you tell it to or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sith_Happens wrote:
Really, the stage 1 on stage 3 installation is exactly what you want to do, it's a reinstallation of Gentoo over an existing installation.

It is not.

A stage 3 tarball is not a ready-to-roll installation. It lacks the proper system tools needed to get a system up and running, such as a system logger, bootloader, kernel sources etc. So strictly speaking, we are doing a fresh install with 1-on-3.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimchi_sg wrote:
Sith_Happens wrote:
Really, the stage 1 on stage 3 installation is exactly what you want to do, it's a reinstallation of Gentoo over an existing installation.

It is not.

A stage 3 tarball is not a ready-to-roll installation. It lacks the proper system tools needed to get a system up and running, such as a system logger, bootloader, kernel sources etc. So strictly speaking, we are doing a fresh install with 1-on-3.
You are missing the point. In fact a stage 3 tarball creates a finished root partition. If you were to create another partition, install a stage 3 tarball, update the config files, and boot your kernel with that new partition as root, it would probably run (that is if you don't use any external kernel modules). A system logger isn't neccessary for a running system (however I would say it's essential :wink: ), and both the kernel bzImage and bootloader can reside on a seperate partition (with the bootloader in the MBR as well), which leaves the stage 3 tarball as the core of a working installation. However, again that's not really the point. The point is this installation meathod takes what is essentially finished and recompiles it from the bottom up. My point was that this same principle can be applied whether you starting from a stage 3 tarball or from a finished installation
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

southpaw wrote:
Thank You...
Sure thing. Just remember that the stage 1 on stage 3 installation is an advanced installation meathod, which can be complicated enough when you are dealing with a clean and predictable stage 3 tarball. If you are going to try and "upgrade" your existing installation, you might run into trouble. If you do have some problems, don't post to this topic, since what you want to do is outside the scope of this support thread. Instead create a new topic and/or pm me, and I'll see if I can help you. Good luck. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another long-winded rant that's really about designing fault-tolerance into complex systems, a favorite subject of mine. :wink:

The Stage 1/3 Guide, as it is written, is not indended for reinstallation of Gentoo on an existing system. If a new user were follow it, word for word, their existing system, its configuration files, and its data, would all be wiped away.

This is a good example of a situation where experienced people really need to think about: the advice that they give to less experienced people, whether or not their advice will be followed in the context in which it is intended, and what the potential dangers may result from giving out good advice to someone who may not fully understand it.

Sith, I'm going to use you as an example here, and I hope that you are not offended by it. Its not meant to single you out -- it just turns out that the timing is right and recent posts make for a good example of the concept I'd like to get across.

Its evident that the experts who are commenting in this thread understand the conceptual basis for rebuilding the toolkit. Its also evident that they know how to deviate from the guide in order to accomplish the alternative goal of re-building an existing Gentoo system. But its not plainly evident that every user with n00b status on the board will understand the subtleties that are required to deviate from the guide in a way that will make it safe as a re-installation method so that all of the user's system files are not destroyed in the process.

This situation can be used as an example to illustrate some of the distinctions that can be made between an expert user and a good teacher. An expert user can very casually (if not irresponsibly) recommend changing things to suit one's individual needs, while a conscientious teacher will realize the danger in doing that and avoid making recommendations before new users that will potentially cause them to b0rk their systems. Taking this one step further, a design-engineer working on a complex system would try to design-out any potential pitfalls in the system that could trip-up a user, thereby allowing them to make a fatal error. One objective of the Stage 1/3 Guide, and this Support Thread, is to design a fault-tolerant system that will not encourage the likelihood fatal errors. (Not to mention trying to avoid the painful support problems that will invariably follow.)

The Stage 1/3 Guide started off as an installation method recommended for Advanced Users. It has since become very popular, so that even though it is an unauthorized alternative installation mtehod, it is probably one of the most widely employed methods of installing Gentoo. It has literally become n00b magnet. By answering alot of questions that only a neophyte would ask, we have over-supported the installation method and lowered the barrier to entry, thereby fostering its further use by an even larger group of significantly less sophisticated Gentoo users. I'd have to agree with kimchi_sg's earlier observation that the Guide has become very n00b-friendly.

What happens when you do this is that people who have absolutely no clue what they are doing now follow the Stage 1/3 Guide as if it were some sort of cookbook. They have no idea what they are doing or why they are doing it, they just follow the recipe, and they get a working Gentoo system.

As a result of the Guide becoming more popular among novice users, the need to increase fault-tolerance has become far more important than it was when the Guide was being used exclusively by expert users. This is one of those "big picture" concepts that tend to be missed too often.

As a result of the Guide's newfound popularity with novice Gentoo users, one has to pay close attention to the situation where a user with "Veteran" status comes along and tells them that its safe to use the Stage 1/3 Guide as a re-installation procedure. Here's what is going to happen: if a novice user follows the Guide, they lose their system files. To use the Guide as a re-installation procedure, its absolutely required that they deviate from it to avoid blasting, at the least -- their system files, and at the worst -- their entire partition.

I am glad to see expert users come along that understand the conceptual basis behind rebuilding the toolkit and are willing to share their expertise. But it makes me cringe to hear anyone propose the argument that the Guide is actually a reinstallation method. It is not. Following the Guide will result in the user overwriting their partitions and the files in /etc -- something that a user trying to preserve remnants of his system would never want to do.

The recommendation to deviate from the Guide as a reinstallation method creates a very real danger is that someone who has less sophistication than the expert is going to follow the expert's advice. What happens when they "mkreiserfs" on an existing partition, or extract a Stage 3 tarball on top of an existing Gentoo installation?

I think its important to keep in mind that the Guide used to be a tool for experts. Back then it was safe to casually talk about changing it to serve alternative purposes of experts. I've lost the battle in keeping the inexperienced users from taking the risk of using this Guide, so now its become a de-facto installation standard for n00bs. Because supporting this thread is as labor intensive as it is, I ask that everyone not make our jobs harder by recommending changes to the Guide or by recommending deviating from the Guide within this thread. In addition to making our support job more difficult, your recommendations may prove potentially fatal for new users.

I'm very glad to see all of the experts who have joined us here and I hope that you will all take the time to re-visit this thread and share your expertise. I would greatly appreciate having additional expert users monitor this thread and help to provide support. In asking for help from experts I am hoping that everyone that chooses to help us would please try to follow the "party line" in supporting the Guide as it is written.

As a personal favor, I would like to ask that there not be ANY talk in the Stage 1/3 Guide Support Thread that recommends deviating from the Guide in any way. If anyone wants to deviate from the Guide to turn it into something other than it is, I have no problems with that, as long as you do us all a favor and deviate into another thread.
:wink:

Thanks for your time.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
a new installation overwrites /etc, while a rebuild does not. that difference is not subtle.
I understand the difference, however what in /etc would break the upgrade? I'm not sure I see what the problem is?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. it looks like you replied while I was editing the "mannifesto", so I apologize for the fact that your post now appears out of context. I hadn't intended that.

at the risk of being redundant -- I appreciate that you understand the difference. the potential problem is that other users may not understand what you do!

my point is not that /etc would break the upgrade -- rather, the point is that a new installation will break /etc and /home.

i really think that because use of the Guide for re-installation requires deviating from the Guide, questions about it should go into another thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
Hmmm. it looks like you replied while I was editing the "mannifesto", so I apologize for the fact that your post now appears out of context. I hadn't intended that.

To answer your question, I appreciate that you understand the difference. the potential problem is that other users may not understand what you do! my point is not that /etc would break the upgrade -- rather, the point is that a new installation will break /etc.
Understood. When I gave the advice to southpaw, I suppose I assumed that he/she would know not to reformat their root partition, or untar a stage tarball over their existing installation. Assumptions make asses out of you and me. :wink: This is your show and I'll let you call the shots. If you look above however, I did give a disclaimer to southpaw:
Sith_Happens wrote:
Sure thing. Just remember that the stage 1 on stage 3 installation is an advanced installation meathod, which can be complicated enough when you are dealing with a clean and predictable stage 3 tarball. If you are going to try and "upgrade" your existing installation, you might run into trouble. If you do have some problems, don't post to this topic, since what you want to do is outside the scope of this support thread. Instead create a new topic and/or pm me, and I'll see if I can help you. Good luck. :)
However, I do understand and respect your criticism, and will tow the party line from here on out. :wink:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem with making any recommendations to new users (or to any user for that matter) is that its impossible to determine anyone's level of sophistication by their postcount. there are developers with n00b level postcounts, and there are occasionally Veterans and l33ts who are total idiots. granted, the later situation isn't the problem it used to be since OTW posts no longer count towards a user's postcount, but i'm digressing. my point was to say that a user's level of sophistication is not readily made evident by looking at their postcount. for this reason, i have to assume that everyone has less sophistication than i would assume that they have. although i may occasionally offend someone by shooting below their level of sophistication, taking that approach keeps me from making irresponsible recommendations. i work very hard to try to avoid that.

personally, i like the way that you handled the idea of deviating in the earlier post -- by recommending that the topic go to another thread for support. my intent wasn't to single out either of you two -- instead, i was just using your decision as an example of how i'd like things to be handled in the future. :)

the reason that i ask for this isn't because i don't want anyone changing the Stage 1/3 guide. its certainly not cast in stone, and i'm sure that someone will come along with ideas to update and improve it, and i welcome that kind of advancement.

my only reason to ask that deviations from the guide get their own threads is to "compartmentalize" things conceptually. to me, it makes sense for people who want to try hardened GCC to have a hardened thread to follow, for people who want to reinstall to have a reinstall thread to follow, and for people who just want to do the install to have an installation support thread that is free of irrelevant material. conceptually, it makes things easier for everyone, and i think making things easier for everyone is a good thing. :wink:

in trying to achieve these goals, i don't want anyone to get the impression that all talk of other ideas is prohibited, or that you have to PM someone to ask for help. it would be easy enough edit a post to say something like, "Hey, I've started a thread about <insert tangent here>, click here if you're interested."
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry Bob, I get it. This support thread is going on 11 pages, you have to keep it focused on what the stage 1 on stage 3 install is designed to do, and keep tangents to a minimum. I appreciate your criticism and don't in any sense take it the wrong way. :) I also understand that while the idea of re-installing stage 1 on stage 3 style is sensible to me, it could cause boku problems to a hapless n00b who tries to take it on. Therefore I would like to add a further disclaimer to my comments above, and say that unless you know what you are doing, recompiling your system from the bottom up can cause serious problems. You can render your entire system into a useless mess very easially if you're not careful. So, if you want to take on such a re-install, think seriously about your own level of expertise, and consider whether re-installing from scratch as per Bob P's guide wouldn't be a viable solution. It is certainly frought with less difficulties.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Now can I get you to volunteer your services here? <nudge, nudge>. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
Great! Now can I get you to volunteer your services here? <nudge, nudge>. :twisted:
What's new Bob, you need someone to try the Stage 1 on Stage 3 using the 2005.0 release?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd really like to have some other people help with this thread. kimchi_sg and I have done the lion's share of it, and i am burning out.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
i'd really like to have some other people help with this thread. kimchi_sg and I have done the lion's share of it, and i am burning out.
Ah, sure thing. I'll start watching this thread as of.....now. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
i'd really like to have some other people help with this thread. kimchi_sg and I have done the lion's share of it, and i am burning out.

Not just you. I've to tear myself away from here now. Gotta study... :roll:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good luck on those exams! :idea:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:02 am    Post subject: A problem with booting that was solved Reply with quote

I've just finished your installation guide. I don't know if I missed something, but when I tried the initial boot , things looked good until the section where you start seeing the "OK" msgs.
When the system tried to write to /etc/mtab, it reported that the file system was read-only, then a few lines later, reported that there was no such file or device as /dev/hda.
I rebooted and chrooted to my system and checked the permissions on /etc. Root was owner and did have write permissions. Then I looked at mtab, except that there was no mtab file. I 'touched' mtab, exited, and rebooted. Worked fine. Now I just have to decide which Window Manager to go with.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: A problem with booting that was solved Reply with quote

GeorgeM wrote:
I've just finished your installation guide. I don't know if I missed something, but when I tried the initial boot , things looked good until the section where you start seeing the "OK" msgs.
When the system tried to write to /etc/mtab, it reported that the file system was read-only, then a few lines later, reported that there was no such file or device as /dev/hda.
I rebooted and chrooted to my system and checked the permissions on /etc. Root was owner and did have write permissions. Then I looked at mtab, except that there was no mtab file. I 'touched' mtab, exited, and rebooted. Worked fine. Now I just have to decide which Window Manager to go with.
Interesting, I wonder what caused that particular problem. Glad you found a solution and posted it here though. Muchas gracias. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sith_Happens wrote:
The only thing I would say about the useflags in the tutorial are that pthreads and ithreads aren't really neccessary. Unless you use the nptlonly flag instead of nptl, then glibc will becompiled twice, once with LinuxThreads support and once with NPTL support, regardless whether you tell it to or not.

the ithreads USE flag is not set for the benefit of glibc.

at the time that i wrote the Guide, the perl/libperl ebuilds would issue a specific screen warning if ithreads was not set as a USE flag, asking that ithreads be enabled as a USE flag in order to allow perl/libperl to fully support NPTL.

has this changed? :?:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
at the time that i wrote the Guide, the perl/libperl ebuilds would issue a specific screen warning if ithreads was not set as a USE flag, asking that ithreads be enabled as a USE flag in order to allow perl/libperl to fully support NPTL.

has this changed? :?:

Code:
emerge -pv perl libperl
will tell you whether this is still true.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know that those commands will list "+ithreads". the question was really about the warning that pops up. i haven't looked for it, and i'm too lazy to look in the ebuild. :?
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