Should vi make it into the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCD?

timbo · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:57 pm Post subject:

Call me a throw-back from god knows where but I've found vi too complicated, if it is to be added PLEASE keep nano for us simpletons and if it can be done that nano -w is default would be great too.

Regards
Tim

Carlos · Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:31 pm Post subject:

You know, there's no straight 'No' choice in the poll - I wonder if that's skewed the results at all.

Dalrain · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:19 am Post subject:

I'll second on the rescue disk comment...it's quite nice to have a "heavier" editor when you need to really muck about in things after a disaster. vi is also covered in some nice O'Reilly books as well, for those people that really need it. (No, not in its own book in this case, I'm talking about the Linux pocket refs and others.)

Also, I keep running into the :wq thing. That's the worst part.

fghellar · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:48 pm Post subject:

masseya · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:10 pm Post subject:

Kanuslupus..

You have some very good points, but I think that there is a very easy line of demarkation. Emacs and vi are the most popular text editors for a unix system. They have large groups of people who create threads like this when they don't get their way. They also have users who have been dedicated to their respective editor for years and years and find other editors difficult to work with at best. In the interests of appeasing n00bs (with nano) and experienced users (with lightweight versions of vi and Emacs) I would want to see them included and nothing more.

To contradict myself, I would like to say that I like the fact that Gentoo hasn't become a huge CD image to download. I like that they do something and then don't second guess it until there's a very rational argument to do so. I agree that nano is certainly good enough for the small amount of time that you would have to use it.
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ebrostig · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:35 pm Post subject:

darktux · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:44 pm Post subject:

rac · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:09 pm Post subject:

Having used various flavors of Emacs for 10 years, I tend to put it on all machines I can. However, it's absolutely overkill for an installation/rescue CD. I agree that the slimness of the install CD is a plus that should not be wantonly sacrificed. I'm not too up on all the various vi clones, but vanilla vi is pretty small, and I would prefer it to nano also. I would hope it would be possible to leave out lots of the syntax highlighting and so forth that comes with a full-featured vim.
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ViMan · n00b Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 51

Why not include Jed (http://space.mit.edu/~davis/jed.html) or MicroEmacs (http://www.microemacs.de/) instead of Emacs if you don't want to include all of Emacs? At least Emacs users would have an Emacs clone to use instead.

darktux · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject:

MicroEmacs maybe, jed no. I think that those 3 editors, would already make 'the community' happy.
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joron · n00b Joined: 18 Dec 2002 Posts: 2

I read nano -w, in the installtion guide, but typed vi on my first installation of Gentoo-1.4rc1. I had never used nano before so I had to learn the basics of a new editor. That took me a couple of minutes

and I have used nano more and more since then.
I'm glad that it wasn't the other way around. Remeber running vi the first time. ESC -> : -> q! -> ENTER isn't exacly obvius.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067

ebrostig · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:24 pm Post subject:

crichards · n00b Joined: 01 Jan 2003 Posts: 32

Actually, its Control-X Control-C in Emacs

Now, I can use Vi proficiently, and I prefer Emacs. I don't really CARE what editor is used on an install disk. For all I care, it could be "some-obscure-editor-nobody-uses", as long as its quick and intuitive on an install disk. Vi is quick and universal, but I really don't remember it being on the Debian install disk. Nano there, IIRC.

Nano is PERFECT for an installer. its small, easy, and quick.

And thats all that matters when you're installing or rescuing a system.

But I don't want Emacs on an install disk. Way too large and slow for an install disk.
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ebrostig · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 2:34 am Post subject:

Valen · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:48 am Post subject:

I seem to recall having vi on my 1.4rc1 LiveCD ... has it been removed in rc2?

As I was reading the mailing list thread it seemed that the argument was focused around having vi included in the stage* tarballs. If vi is on the livecd it is a very simple matter to open another terminal and do your editting with vi from outside the chrooted environment. In fact I don't think I used nano to do any of my editting for 1.4 installations. This would also hold for the rescue disk idea.

That said I do think that vi's history as the standard unix editor and it's relatively small size would make it a reasonable choice to include in the stage* tarballs, but I am leaning strongly towards indifference if it is still on the rc2 livecd.

whit · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:34 am Post subject: Anything but nano

The same as some people have vi programmed in their fingertip reflexes, others of us have been using WordStar-keyed editors forever. There was a whole slew of small editors under CP/M and DOS using the WordStar control key set, which is a laid out in a way which works very well for anyone with a geometric imagination. Last I looked, Borland's tools still obey the WordStar keys. And those of us from that background who've ended up on Linux often discover that by invoking joe as "jstar" we're still right at home. (On the rare times I still work in DOS, I use vde.)

Okay, so what's wrong with nano? Once a WordStar-keystroke accustomed user learns not to move down a line with ctrl-X, there's still the ctrl-KX to save and exit. So what does nano do with ctrl-KX? It deletes the line you're on and then exits. The last thing you want in an installation system is something that makes it easy - even likely - to lose crucial data - namely a line in a configuration file. I know it's too late to ask, but it would be good if nano just went away. If people want a pico clone, evoking joe as "jpico" gives you one with far more power than nano has. Yes, joe is a larger install than nano - but still quite small in the scheme of things. Yes, the version of joe in Gentoo has lagged behind; installing the current version instead gives you something that won't get confused in X windows.

And vi should always be there too - having the tools that fit the hands well is crucial to the quality of the craft. During an install or a resue disk operation is precisely when you're properly focusing on larger, more pressing questions and shouldn't have to worry about controlling an unfamiliar editor. Plus, nano is braindead - and vi is beautiful in the hands of a user who knows it, but so is joe.

Larde · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:18 am Post subject:

fghellar · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:37 pm Post subject:

ajaustin · n00b Joined: 18 Oct 2002 Posts: 38 Location: Surrey UK

I think vi should be there, it's traditional. After all, wasn't it Richard Stallman's hatred of vi that was the initial impetus behind GNU?

I used to hate vi too, but now I love it, it's just a matter of sticking with it and remembering that if it was good enough for Kernigan and Richie it's good enough for me.

PS. My Windows loving son saw me editing some Perl or Javascript with vi - "what's that? It's really cool!", "Oh, it's just good old vi."
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bigfoot · n00b Joined: 19 Sep 2002 Posts: 1

A total of %84 percent of the people polled want vi on the disk, either in addition, or replacing nano.

Why is this even a topic of disscusion?

Love it or hate it, if you use unix you end up knowing enough vi to edit a file.

I don't see Gentoo as trying to be the install for first time unix users, it's clearly bent tword the user that rolls thier own sytem. If you can't manage that, you probably couldn't complete the install anyway.

Why don't we rename ls to dir while we are at it?

fghellar · Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Why is this a topic?

jonemi · Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 4:40 pm Post subject:

I say small rendition of Vi and Emacs. These are industry-standard.

Personally, I don't mind Nano on an install disk (though remembering to use '-w' and to delete all my extra j's I accidently put in the first line of my config files is a little perturbing). However, for a rescue disk, I would rather use a real editor. Something that is powerful and efficient.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067

Seems like the topic has exhausted itself.
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