Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
François Hollande ~ Business Disaster
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: François Hollande ~ Business Disaster Reply with quote

French business erupts in fury against "disastrous" François Hollande

Quote:
France is sliding into a grave economic crisis and risks a full-blown “hurricane” as investors flee rocketing tax rates, the country’s business federation has warned.

“The situation is very serious. Some business leaders are in a state of quasi-panic,” said Laurence Parisot, head of employers’ group MEDEF.

“The pace of bankruptcies has accelerated over the summer. We are seeing a general loss of confidence by investors. Large foreign investors are shunning France altogether. It’s becoming really dramatic.”

MEDEF, France’s equivalent of the CBI, said the threat has risen from “a storm warning to a hurricane warning”, adding that the Socialist government of François Hollande has yet to understand the “extreme gravity” of the crisis.

The immediate bone of contention is Article 6 of the new tax law, which raises the top rate of capital gains tax from 34.5pc to 62.2pc. This compares with 21pc in Spain, 26.4pc in Germany and 28pc in Britain.

“Let’s be clear, Article 6 is not acceptable, even if modified. We will not be complicit in a disastrous economic mistake,” Mrs Parisot told Le Figaro.

An alliance of private organisations in France has issued a protest entitled “State of Emergency for Business”, warning that confiscatory tax rates threaten lasting damage to the French economy.

Mrs Parisot said the policies border on economic illiteracy: “The idea of aligning taxes on capital with those on wages is a profound economic error. It is scandalous that the French have been left in such economic ignorance for years.”

French business has called for “competiveness shock” of business tax cuts to claw back lost ground against Germany. Instead, it faces an extra €10bn (£8.1bn) of business costs from the budget unveiled in September.

Mr Hollande is tightening fiscal policy by 2pc of GDP next year to meet EU deficit targets, with two-thirds coming from higher taxes. The budget does little to shrink the French state. Spending has risen to 55pc of GDP, similar to Sweden but without Nordic labour flexibility.

French economic growth has been near zero for the past five quarters. It may have tipped into recession over the summer as the malaise spread from Italy and Spain, according to Banque de France.

New car registrations were down 7.7pc in the third quarter from a year earlier. Unemployment has been creeeping up, reaching a post-euro high of 10.6pc.

The fear is that a fiscal shock in 2013 will tip the economy into a sharp downward slide. “France needs more fiscal austerity right now like a hole in the head,” said sovereign debt strategist Nicholas Spiro.
“They don’t have any chance of meeting their growth target of 0.8pc next year, but that does not in itself put French debt at risk.

“The real danger is contagion if things turn ugly in Spain.”

Finance minister Pierre Moscovici has hinted at a shift in policy, saying there may have to be a “reorientation” of the eurozone’s fiscal strategy. “The people are not going to like Europe if it can’t offer growth,” he said.

Mr Hollande has promised reforms to the labour market next year but MEDEF remains sceptical.

Mrs Parisot said business feels deeply unloved and is “in revolt across the country”.

_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doubling the capital gains is just stupid (not quite double but close). strange, because in the EU, companies can move.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 132
Location: India

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, really? Tell me more.
_________________
"Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated, until defeat has been accepted as a reality." -- Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2045
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just tell them they are free to move - but they have to pay back all subsidies they got so far. With interest.

They will stay.

Just like HP some years ago. Threatened to cut almost all the workforce in France. They showed some balls, told HP to pay all the subsidies back - HP crumbled.
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

I identify as a dirty penismensch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 132
Location: India

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you siding with the French?
_________________
"Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated, until defeat has been accepted as a reality." -- Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2045
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

I identify as a dirty penismensch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Are you siding with the French?


He always sides with government.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2045
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
notageek wrote:
Are you siding with the French?


He always sides with government.


no, in this case I am siding with free market. Free market means no subsidies. You want to be free to move? Fine. So you pay all the goodies back you got. Now.
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

I identify as a dirty penismensch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
notageek wrote:
Are you siding with the French?


He always sides with government.


no, in this case I am siding with free market. Free market means no subsidies. You want to be free to move? Fine. So you pay all the goodies back you got. Now.


Was HP given money, or just had less of their money taken by the French government as part of their deal?
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1609
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To a Leftie, that's the same thing. Tax cuts are "costs", remember? Obama even said it during the debate tonight (Mitt Romney's alleged tax cut is "spending").
_________________
patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
To a Leftie, that's the same thing. Tax cuts are "costs", remember? Obama even said it during the debate tonight (Mitt Romney's alleged tax cut is "spending").


:lol: :lol: :lol:

It's such backwards thinking... Not mugging that man in the park cost me $40!!!
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
notageek wrote:
Are you siding with the French?


He always sides with government.


no, in this case I am siding with free market. Free market means no subsidies. You want to be free to move? Fine. So you pay all the goodies back you got. Now.


Was HP given money, or just had less of their money taken by the French government as part of their deal?


same thing. if you don't pay your legal share and get a contractual break from it, keep up your end of the bargain.

But they shouldn't be getting subsidies in the first place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1000
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
Was HP given money, or just had less of their money taken by the French government as part of their deal?


same thing.


No, it really isn't. If I built a factory for you, that is quite different from taking less of your money away from you so you can build a factory. All taxation is fundamentally theft. You can try and justify it until you're blue in the face, but it will never change reality.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
Was HP given money, or just had less of their money taken by the French government as part of their deal?


same thing.


No, it really isn't. If I built a factory for you, that is quite different from taking less of your money away from you so you can build a factory. All taxation is fundamentally theft. You can try and justify it until you're blue in the face, but it will never change reality.


so contracts are thrown out the window?

these companies are mobile. Don't like the rules? with very little red tape they can move to ireland.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
No, it really isn't. If I built a factory for you, that is quite different from taking less of your money away from you so you can build a factory. All taxation is fundamentally theft. You can try and justify it until you're blue in the face, but it will never change reality.

The balance is the same. It's the same thing economically. You can go on all the randroid rants you want about how taxes=theft until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, either subsidy or tax cut, someone else has to pay more, usually your grandchildren.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1609
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but that's just not how economics works. These things are done for a reason. Subsidies are done to bring in employers, which create jobs and pay taxes. Even if the going corporate tax rate is 30%, a government getting 30% of nothing is nothing. Far better to get 20% of something. Similarly, tax cuts are given to increase demand and the savings rate, to stimulate economic growth (actually stimulate it, not Obama stimulate it). That money serves as either demand or investments (it must be one or the other, unless you bury it in a jar in your back yard) both of which build real, self-sustaining, value-creating jobs (not government jobs, which are a leech on the cartoid artery of the economy), and flows through many hands, serving over and over again as income for businesses and individuals, and being taxed over and over again by the government.

The surplus of the Clinton years was in fact a result of the very "trickle down" economics Obama likes to blame for the recession. The recession was caused by government meddling in the housing market, failure to regulate derivatives, irrational exuberance over technology-driven productivity rates, and failure of the Fed under to attenuate the boom-bust cycle of capitalism (all of the above, under both Clinton and Bush).

What somebody has to "pay for later" is deficit spending. Our current deficit is driven by reduced revenue because the economy hasn't recovered yet and by recklessly excessive government spending. We can discuss and debate all day about how to orchestrate economic recovery and reduce deficits, but we know one thing for sure: Obama either doesn't know how to do this or doesn't want to; we have four years of demonstrated evidence (two of it with overwhelming control of both the legislative and executive branches).

Obama is borrowing one third of the money he is spending. That's what "somebody is going to have to pay back", and unless effective measures are taken to rebuild the economy and then fiscal discipline is applied to rein in wasteful spending, that's going to continue indefinitely; that's what "somebody is going to have to pay back", and that's exactly what Obama brings us.

As to this situation with HP in France, a deal is a deal. What was the deal? If the government gave HP subsidies to locate its operation there, and did not attach any terms with respect to how long they had to stay there, then HP would have told them, in court, to fuck off. What probably happened was that HP made a considered business decision to terminate that operation, knowing full well that included paying back what subsidies they had received.
_________________
patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2045
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
notageek wrote:
Are you siding with the French?


He always sides with government.


no, in this case I am siding with free market. Free market means no subsidies. You want to be free to move? Fine. So you pay all the goodies back you got. Now.


Was HP given money, or just had less of their money taken by the French government as part of their deal?


they were given money. And since they hardly paid for the infrastructure, the educated work force or the justice&security system they used, they got more money then they were giving the French state for all those services.
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

I identify as a dirty penismensch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1609
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not any more. Socialism FTW!
_________________
patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
energyman76b
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2045
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Not any more. Socialism FTW!


please tell us if you come down from your stupid trip.
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

I identify as a dirty penismensch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 132
Location: India

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
please tell us if you come down from your stupid trip.
Not likely anytime soon. Obama just bitch-slapped Romney. He'll need some time to recover. Not talking about Romney.
_________________
"Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated, until defeat has been accepted as a reality." -- Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1609
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Not any more. Socialism FTW!


please tell us if you come down from your stupid trip.

Oh, I just mean it's not like this was some kind victory for the French government; they drove away a big employer who, subsidies or not, was providing good high-tech jobs and paying taxes.
_________________
patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1609
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
please tell us if you come down from your stupid trip.
Not likely anytime soon. Obama just bitch-slapped Romney. He'll need some time to recover. Not talking about Romney.

Do I need to start putting sterilization drugs in your Coca Cola again? You're in a trolling mood today. :lol:
_________________
patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum