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Are International Gentoo Forums Good or Bad
Good
88%
 88%  [ 30 ]
Bad
11%
 11%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 34

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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:53 pm    Post subject: International Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

I think international forums beat the very essence of open source movement.

Sure, everyone should be allowed to speak in their native language, just like everyone should be allowed not to disclose the code they've written. But, computer technology is world-wide, it is English-based, English is the most natural way for communicating about it and is de facto world-wide standard.

It has happen many times that I've found information I'm looking for and guess what - it was in German. Or Dutch. Or French. So now we have the beautiful free open source world that shares information in million languages and alphabets (aren't you thrilled that Chinese forum is finally here).

I claim:
International forums divide and do not help on a large scale.

A disclaimer for flamers - English is not my native language and I am fluent in 4 languages.

Cast your vote.

EDIT:

I'd like to redefine this a little bit. International forums are good for those people not knowing English at all or not being proficient. However, I think collaboration would be more effective if communication was in English, which is de facto standard in computer world. So, I'd say, it is an appeal to make communication as easy as possible for everyone - if you don't know English, you are welcome to use your language. If you do know English, use it.


Last edited by aleskx on Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Trevoke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"English is the most natural way for communicating about it".

No. Wrong. Thank you for trolling, do not come again.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: International Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
But, computer technology is world-wide, it is English-based, English is the most natural way for communicating about it and is de facto world-wide standard.
Just because it's the most common doesn't mean everybody can speak it well (or even at all). Thus if they can post in their native language and get help, our community grows and Gentoo is made better because of it.
Quote:
It has happen many times that I've found information I'm looking for and guess what - it was in German. Or Dutch. Or French. So now we have the beautiful free open source world that shares information in million languages and alphabets (aren't you thrilled that Chinese forum is finally here).
Perhaps you want something like the Google translator?
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ewan.paton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so basically if you didn't speak english already would would have to learn a foreign language just to install and find help with a computer os :?:

while i agree it can be a pain if yove got a bug and the only suitable search result is in german but you could either bablefish it or just post politly and hope some translates it for you
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should still have the international forums, but perhaps install a phpbb modification so we can select an option "Don't display international forums, or posts from them."

I find it annoying that when I view the new posts after a day or so there are a lot of other language ones there which I can't understand. It's a minor annoyance I know - but it becomes annoying when you have to sift through them.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

english sucks

it's all i know though
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trevoke wrote:
"English is the most natural way for communicating about it".

No. Wrong. Thank you for trolling, do not come again.


have you ever tried to talk about anything computer related in any other language than english? and if so, have you been able to use that language exclusively (without substituting english words for the ones you were lacking in the language)?
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Trevoke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I speak German, English, Italian, French.
if I need help in another language, I'll manage.

Have you ever considered that more languages is just like more flavors of Linux? It's good. Variety is good. Monotony is bad.

[Edit : English ain't my first language either.]
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foosh
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx, you truly have no vision. EDIT: maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were basically arguing "english should be used exclusively when discussing technology"
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe my question was not formulated right, but I can see the discussion will be a lively one.

I do not mean that anyone who does not speak English should be left out. But I'd say that 99% users around here do speak English.

And I'm not proposing that international forums be removed, too. That would not be in the spirit of the whole thing. I'm saying, people should try to communicate as effectively as possible and whoever can speak english should do so on the forums because, not matter what you think of the language, it is de facto standard.
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gowator
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my 1st language but my french is OK, i just take ages to wriote anything so I tend to read only the french forums.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been to the German forum, but I think it's a good way for people who don't want or can't talk english to get support.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foosh wrote:
aleskx, you truly have no vision. EDIT: maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were basically arguing "english should be used exclusively when discussing technology"


no,that would be insane statement. anyone can speak whatever language they want. exchange of information would be easier if we all spoke same language. that's the idea of standards. some standards are imposed and never really live. some things become standards eventhough they were never meant to.

english is de facto standard language when it comes to computer related human communication.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:


I do not mean that anyone who does not speak English should be left out. But I'd say that 99% users around here do speak English.

Around where?
Where you live?
The users registered and posting here in the Forums?

I'm sure a high percentage of our registered users can manage to read and understand english, but what about those who are not registered and/or are just starting to install it.

Just because you speak 4 languages and I speak 7, doesn't mean that every person on Earth with a computer do the same. If they speak english, it is not to the point where they can actually discuss a technical issue. It's much easier in ones own language even though some expressions are english.

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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:

The users registered and posting here in the Forums?


yes

Quote:

I'm sure a high percentage of our registered users can manage to read and understand english, but what about those who are not registered and/or are just starting to install it.


handbook in their language

Quote:

Just because you speak 4 languages and I speak 7, doesn't mean that every person on Earth with a computer do the same. If they speak english, it is not to the point where they can actually discuss a technical issue. It's much easier in ones own language even though some expressions are english.


hey, and what about me when I moved to USA? guess what - I had to speak English. Before that I used to work in Italy (not my native country) - guess what - I've had to speak Italian. Why? Because everyone else around me was speaking those languages.

Now, I could have chosen to speak my native language in both countries. And guess what would happen to me - I would not get very far. Same will happen to anyone who wants to advance in any computer related area and is not willing to learn English. And this is not to promote English or say anything against any other language. It is just how things are today.
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Trevoke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx : the world of the internet is a world where no one speaks your language. Deal with it.
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ChojinDSL
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems kind of strange to talk about "open" source and yet restrict to a single language. Isn't choice what its all about?

What about all the people that dont speak english or hardly speak english. Should we just ignore them? I dont want to imagine how many opensource coders there are that hardly speak any english whatsoever, yet contribute hugely to the open source movement.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should probably lose mplayer 'cause it's not made in the states like homegrown apple pie from the backyard. :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Off the Wall.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trevoke wrote:
aleskx : the world of the internet is a world where no one speaks your language. Deal with it.


it is obvious from my previous post that I am dealing with it quite succesfully, on the internet and in real life. however, you are completely missing my point. if everyone who speaks english would use it to communicate in the forums, everyone would benefit because the exchange of information would be wider and faster.

again (in the light of your "homegrown apple pie" comment) - my post is not about any kind of chauvinist or xenofobic feeling toward any ethnic group or language - it is about efficiency of sharing information

and to ChojinDSL and opensource non -english contributors:

do you think that anyone would actually get away by contributing to, say apache, and commiting code with comments in some other language but english? Or, would we be arguing about this today if Torvalds had commented his code in Finnish or Stroustrup documented his language in Danish?
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ian!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
if everyone who speaks english would use it to communicate in the forums, everyone would benefit because the exchange of information would be wider and faster.


Tja. Das ist aber schlecht jetzt. Warum reden wir dann nicht alle deutsch? Ich kann viel besser technische Hilfe im deutschen Forum geben, als ich es im englischen kann, da es meine Muttersprache ist. Und ich könnte auch besser mit dir reden, wenn du auf deutsch antworten würdest. Warum machst du es mir so schwer und behinderst den Informationsfluss indem du englisch sprichst? Kannst du kein deutsch? --- Aha. Merkst du was?

aleskx wrote:
do you think that anyone would actually get away by contributing to, say apache, and commiting code with comments in some other language but english? Or, would we be arguing about this today if Torvalds had commented his code in Finnish or Stroustrup documented his language in Danish?

That's a completely different point.
We would lose a great part of our community if we wouldn't have the 'International Forums Section'.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And thus, the benefit of OSS. Fork Gentoo and create the English-only-collaborative version.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian! wrote:

Tja. Das ist aber schlecht jetzt. Warum reden wir dann nicht alle deutsch?


Because, my friend, German language did not make it as wide as English did. Sorry.

ian! wrote:

Ich kann viel besser technische Hilfe im deutschen Forum geben, als ich es im englischen kann, da es meine Muttersprache ist.


I understand that. However, your audience would be much wider if you would post in English.

[quote="ian!"]
Und ich könnte auch besser mit dir reden, wenn du auf deutsch antworten würdest.
[\quote]

Won't happen. Sorry.

ian! wrote:

Warum machst du es mir so schwer und behinderst den Informationsfluss indem du englisch sprichst? Kannst du kein deutsch?
[\quote]

Noone is obstructiong you. You're just not lucky.

--- Aha. Merkst du was?

aleskx wrote:
do you think that anyone would actually get away by contributing to, say apache, and commiting code with comments in some other language but english? Or, would we be arguing about this today if Torvalds had commented his code in Finnish or Stroustrup documented his language in Danish?

That's a completely different point.


This shows me that you can communicate in English fine, but you simply chose to do it in German.

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing against your language (or any other language). And code comments are not different point. Why post on forums but not comment your code in German?

ian! wrote:

We would lose a great part of our community if we wouldn't have the 'International Forums Section'.


sure, for those not capable speaking english. I am not aginst international forums (see the edit of my original post). I am for easier sharing of information
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: International Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
It has happen many times that I've found information I'm looking for and guess what - it was in German. Or Dutch. Or French.

That's the real problem. The Germans (or sometimes the Dutch or the French) are the only people able to solve problems. The people who speak English aren't. Therefor everything else than the German (and maybe the Dutch & French) forums should be closed, let the capable people lead open source!!!!1111111111oneone.

Ok, i'll stop trolling now. Open source is about empowering people and working together. This includes people speaking any language and not only English.
Btw: People in the German Forums are usually quite helpful if someone comes into a thread and has problem understanding the german solution.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: International Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

amne wrote:

Open source is about empowering people and working together.
This includes people speaking any language and not only English.

Exactly. So are you saying that it is easier to work together if you speak different languages and have to have someone to translate for you? Because I am saying it is easier if we all speak common language.
amne wrote:

Btw: People in the German Forums are usually quite helpful if someone comes into a thread and has problem understanding the german solution.

I'm not saying they are not. I'm saying if they (or any other ethnic group) would exchange information with the rest of the world in a language that everyone understands, it would make it easier for everyone.

Previous post shows that people speak fine english but just want to speak their native language for whatever reason. And that's fine, I believe in freedom of choice. However, they are willingly isolating themselves and community in whole does not thrive as it could.
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