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yngwin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:25 am    Post subject: Instance specific CoC discussion. Reply with quote

User: steveL
Topic: ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo
Post: post 7728432
Reason: name-calling. It is definitely against the Code of Conduct to call Gentoo developers neo-fascist asshats.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Reason: name-calling. It is definitely against the Code of Conduct to call Gentoo developers neo-fascist asshats.

Hmm you appear to be under the illusion that I have called all Gentoo developers a bunch of neo-fascist asshats.

In fact all I said was that there are some "neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats" within the distro.

You are perfectly free to take issue with that description; that is in fact what the statement invites: open discussion.

As for "asshats" it is a term which, to my certain knowledge, Gentoo developers have been using across media, including their own publically-archived mailing-list, since before I joined these forums.

And I've read them apply it to themselves, including groups amongst themselves, although admittedly they do apply it to users more.

As such, that cannot be what offends you. So I'm left with the other part; "developers" using their knowledge of their own systems to try and strong-arm, coerce or otherwise bully users; most usually to shut down any criticism, often with quite nasty abuse of power.

I'm not saying you've gone that far; but you definitely appear to be attempting to shut down criticism, instead of engaging in discussion. This appears to be a pattern with you, in that all you've ever confronted me about openly is to claim that "developers should be treated specially" in order to behave as well as users do. And then sulked, apparently, when none of us bought it.

By all means, feel free to contend my description of the behaviour of some developers further in the thread, where it belongs.
I do not accept that I am to be shut up for expressing an opinion on it, however; especially when people keep asking "how come no-one wants to help us officially." That's why; correct the issue or don't. It will still be the issue.

We all know that users help out unofficially a great deal; the distro would not survive without them.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think all Gentoo developers are anything. Like any other group of individuals, trying to generalise about them would be foolish. However the user channels are self-evidently more pleasant places than the developer-aimed ones.
Go figure.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the above was reported, I'll include the response here, since it's on-point about the discussion (and will only get removed, otherwise.)
As ever if you feel a statement of mine is incorrect, I'd prefer it if you simply call me on it where it happened. So feel free to disagree with me, upfront. (I'd expect no less.)
yngwin wrote:
Reason: name-calling. It is definitely against the Code of Conduct to call Gentoo developers neo-fascist asshats.

Hmm you appear to be under the illusion that I have called all Gentoo developers a bunch of neo-fascist asshats.

In fact all I said was that there are some "neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats" within the distro.

You are perfectly free to take issue with that description; that is in fact what the statement invites: open discussion.

As for "asshats" it is a term which, to my certain knowledge, Gentoo developers have been using across media, including their own publically-archived mailing-list, since before I joined these forums.

And I've read them apply it to themselves, including groups amongst themselves, although admittedly they do apply it to users more.

As such, that cannot be what offends you. So I'm left with the other part; "developers" using their knowledge of their own systems to try and strong-arm, coerce or otherwise bully users; most usually to shut down any criticism, often with quite nasty abuse of power.

I'm not saying you've gone that far; but you definitely appear to be attempting to shut down criticism, instead of engaging in discussion. This appears to be a pattern with you, in that all you've ever confronted me about openly is to claim that "developers should be treated specially" in order to behave as well as users do. And then sulked, apparently, when none of us bought it.

By all means, feel free to contend my description of the behaviour of some developers further in the thread, where it belongs.
I do not accept that I am to be shut up for expressing an opinion on it, however; especially when people keep asking "how come no-one wants to help us officially." That's why; correct the issue or don't. It will still be the issue.

We all know that users help out unofficially a great deal; the distro would not survive without them.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think all Gentoo developers are anything. Like any other group of individuals, trying to generalise about them would be foolish. However the user channels are self-evidently more pleasant places than the developer-aimed ones.
Go figure.
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
yngwin wrote:
Reason: name-calling. It is definitely against the Code of Conduct to call Gentoo developers neo-fascist asshats.

Hmm you appear to be under the illusion that I have called all Gentoo developers a bunch of neo-fascist asshats.

You didn't use the word all, but gave the impression you were applying your description generously to a large group of developers. Besides, that is not to the point. Even if it was just about one developer, the words you chose are unacceptable here.

steveL wrote:
In fact all I said was that there are some "neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats" within the distro.

And there is no way this can be interpreted as not insulting. As such it is a violation of the Code of Conduct. Which you just repeated. I just want to underline that using such words here is unacceptable, no matter who they are describing.

steveL wrote:
You are perfectly free to take issue with that description; that is in fact what the statement invites: open discussion.

No, it does not. The statement is wilfully insulting, and in violation of our Code of Conduct. No discussion is needed. You should either retract them, or be disciplined.

steveL wrote:
As for "asshats" it is a term which, to my certain knowledge, Gentoo developers have been using across media, including their own publically-archived mailing-list, since before I joined these forums.

Just because others break the rules, that gives you license to do the same? Even my kids in elementary school know it doesn't work that way.

steveL wrote:
As such, that cannot be what offends you. So I'm left with the other part; "developers" using their knowledge of their own systems to try and strong-arm, coerce or otherwise bully users; most usually to shut down any criticism, often with quite nasty abuse of power.

I'm not saying you've gone that far; but you definitely appear to be attempting to shut down criticism, instead of engaging in discussion.

I'm not shutting down criticism. I object to your use of insulting language.

As long as you can be civil, any valid criticism is welcome. I am certainly not claiming developers can do no wrong. But please be constructive, instead of antagonizing and insulting.

steveL wrote:
By all means, feel free to contend my description of the behaviour of some developers further in the thread, where it belongs.
I do not accept that I am to be shut up for expressing an opinion on it, however;

You are free to express an opinion. But the Code of Conduct applies here, so you are not free to use insulting language.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@yngwin: I have zero interest in getting into a blow-by-blow with you, especially when all you're doing is avoiding the substantive, and trying to arm-twist me via the semi-mythical "Code of Conduct".

As you were notified when you tried to make a minor forums issue into a "stage 2 CoC violation" without even allowing time for me to respond to your complaint, the CoC does not even apply to users.

That was the concomitant of bastardising the Community-mandated CoC, ripping out the Proctors, and making it a developer-only affair.

The only thing that applies here are Forum guidelines. You might have a case for a wider userrel ban if I were egregiously insulting or demeaning of individuals across official media, but that patently is not the case, here or anywhere else. I have never made any statements about you, or any other individual; nor have I called anyone a fascist. Merely said that at times, abuse of power comes across as neo-fascist.

But you are not interested in discussion, nor meaning. Simply in trying to shut down criticism, and threaten use of a non-existent policy, afaict.

And as usual, holding me and other users to a higher standard of behaviour than developers.

That's the bit that really gets me; have you no insight into that at all? Hint: your "two wrongs don't make a right" bit about developer behaviour is exactly that.

As for language, I find it hilarious that you are so caught up on form, and completely ignore the elephant in the room.

Incidentally I note in passing that your abuse of formal process, without even a modicum of good-faith, let alone any sort of attempt to address substantive discussion, leads one to conclude that you are not in fact acting in good-faith, for all your cuddly language and attempts to sound like an example of super-dev, as opposed to yaf freek.

(No, that is not an insult either, though I know you're dying to paint it as one.) It is however an explanation for why I shall not be responding to you, substantively or otherwise, again. I'll pick you up on factual errors, like anyone else, but no more.

Good day.
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
As you were notified when you tried to make a minor forums issue into a "stage 2 CoC violation" without even allowing time for me to respond to your complaint, the CoC does not even apply to users.

You are wrong. The CoC applies to everyone partaking in Gentoo's public communication fora. Read again the relevant documents:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel

steveL wrote:
You might have a case for a wider userrel ban if I were egregiously insulting or demeaning of individuals across official media, but that patently is not the case, here or anywhere else. I have never made any statements about you, or any other individual; nor have I called anyone a fascist. Merely said that at times, abuse of power comes across as neo-fascist.

No, you said:
steveL wrote:
the reason you still hear me go on about it, is because in the background the developers had changed the rules, [...] to put even more power than before in the developers' hands. [...] That's why I don't interact with bugzilla nor the developer list any more, haven't for over a year, and will not for the foreseeable future.
Simply no point when the game is so stacked against users, and I'm not one for playing it, so I leave them to it. After all that's what so many of them have told me to do for years; "get out of Gentoo". I won't ofc, as I love the userbase and the distro; I'll just ignore the neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats instead.

You were clearly talking about the developers.

steveL wrote:
But you are not interested in discussion, nor meaning. Simply in trying to shut down criticism, and threaten use of a non-existent policy, afaict.

And as usual, holding me and other users to a higher standard of behaviour than developers.

This is completely false. What I am trying to do here is to steer the discussion back to civil levels of communication, and to show that such insulting words as you use are unacceptable, because they prevent any kind of civil discourse from taking place. I would do the same were I talking with a developer.

steveL wrote:
[...] It is however an explanation for why I shall not be responding to you, substantively or otherwise, again.

And this is where you show your bad faith. You are not even willing to admit that what you said was wrong, and to have a civil discussion instead.

As to matters of substance: why would I discuss them with you if you can't behave in a civil manner?
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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged from posts split from the reports topic and "ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo"

I have addressed concerns regarding this discussion more or less privately to yngwin. Hence I will limit my commentary here to briefly note that the guidelines are expressly inclusive of the code of conduct, regardless of badges, and have been for years. However, the CoC really does not bring anything new to the guidelines anyway and complaints on the forums are considered based on the rules of the forums. As I have previously stated to both involved parties, I do not consider the initial complaint to be a matter meriting any further formal action.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Topic locked, as the matter is now fully formally closed.
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