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ninjabadger
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Using the w3c validator Reply with quote

As part of my uni course im doing web design and using the w3c validatior. I was bored so I decided to run msn.co.uk through it, look at this :P

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.co.uk&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=%28detect+automatically%29

I also checked the gentoo and was pleased by the result :) (waves gentoo flag)

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gentoo.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=%28detect+automatically%29
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eSinner
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's because you'll find that Microsoft doesn't give two hoots about standards. While not wanting to defend MS, I sometimes doesn't see the point with it either. I mean, from a pragmatic standpoint, as long as the page renders properly in all browsers, standards don't actually increase your browsing experience. That said, I still validate my own site with the W3C validator so I stay in a good markup routine...
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mtj
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eSinner wrote:
[...] I mean, from a pragmatic standpoint, as long as the page renders properly in all browsers, standards don't actually increase your browsing experience. That said, I still validate my own site with the W3C validator so I stay in a good markup routine...

And how do you know, that a page renders properly in ALL browsers? Install all of them in every version that is still in use out there and test?
No, standards compliance is the only way to go IMO.
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eSinner
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. Not really a hard thing to do when you consider that there is generally only 4 rendering engines in wide use. Khtml for konqueror and safari, gecko for Netscape, Firefox, Mozilla, Epiphany and so on, and, Opera, and Internet Explorer. I use KDE so Konq is already there. Opera is only 5 MB or so discounting deps which is basically only QT and a few small things, which happen to be there already due to having kde. Firefox I use because it's my favourite. IE is on my wife's Windows box, and there you have all 4, without going out of your way.

Besides, you can't tell me that JUST because something is standards compliant that it LOOKS the same in all browsers. Each browser has it's own way of rendering, and not all of them are standards compliant. So unless you want to exclude part of the wider audience it's in your best interest to make sure they reneder properly in all 4 engines anyway.

Standards compliance alone would be ok if it were 1996 and everyone was happy with pages as ugly as gnu.org.....unfortunately it's 2004 and in **some** situations breaking compliance is the only way to get the job done.

But....to each their own. :wink:
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blue.sca
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eSinner wrote:
Exactly. Not really a hard thing to do when you consider that there is generally only 4 rendering engines in wide use. Khtml for konqueror and safari, gecko for Netscape, Firefox, Mozilla, Epiphany and so on, and, Opera, and Internet Explorer. I use KDE so Konq is already there. Opera is only 5 MB or there abouts discounting deps which is basically only QT and a few small things, which happen to be there already due to having kde. Firefox I use because it's my favourite. IE is on my wife's Windows box, and there you have all 4, without going out of your way.


and whats with text based browsers? or dillo? or netscape 4.7? oh you dont support them, i understand, why then making the afford to even optimize the page to 4 browsers/engines? just look if it is rendered correctly on you box...

Quote:

Besides, you can't tell me that JUST because something is standards compliant that it LOOKS the same in all browsers. Each browser has it's own way of rendering, and not all of them are standards compliant. [...]


Yeah, but thats the browsers problem. If they would all follow w3c standarts, a page would display equal in every browser...

Quote:

[...] So unless you want to exclude part of the wider audience it's in your best interest to make sure they reneder properly in all 4 engines anyway.


fine, but what, if your favourite page, say gentoo, decides not to support khtml? because the web developer has not installed kde and dont tends to...

Quote:

Standards compliance alone would be ok if it were 1996 and everyone was happy with pages as ugly as gnu.org.....unfortunately it's 2004 and in **some** situations breaking compliance is the only way to get the job done.


Thats bullshit, sorry, i am not really familiar with web coding, but im interessted in good designs and all the funky state-of-the-art designs are 100% w3c compilant...

Quote:

But....to each their own. :wink:


Yeah, and choosing the best browser for me is also my own right. And as long as this browser is w3c compilant, i have the right to get my pages display correctly...
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frippz
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a little side note here, W3C has no standards, they are recommendations. ;)
Our lifes as webdesigners would be a whole lot easier if they were standards though... ;)
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thomasando
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blue.sca wrote:

Thats bullshit, sorry, i am not really familiar with web coding, but im interessted in good designs and all the funky state-of-the-art designs are 100% w3c compilant...


Actually, I can guarantee that not 'all' of the 'funky, state-of-the-art designs' are 100% w3c compliant... there's a high proportion of websites out there that aren't compliant! Doing intricate designs, it makes it even harder to be standards compliant... I can guarantee that if a site that looks awesome is w3c compliant, that a hell of a lot of work has been put in to make it that way. It's easy to doa good design. It's relatively easy to make it display well on all browsers too, but to make it look good, work well and be w3c compliant - that's a fair job.

BTW, netscape 4.7 is rendered using the gecko engine I believe - so if a page displays right in mozilla/firefox, it will be right in netscape. As for text based browsers... well this is about design. Have you ever tried to design a page for a text based browser? I think not... it's hard to do a good design when you only have text to work with. Text browsers dont even do much with layouts so it wouldnt matter anyway!

Quote:
fine, but what, if your favourite page, say gentoo, decides not to support khtml? because the web developer has not installed kde and dont tends to...


Well it doesn't really matter. HTML code is HTML code - it will always render more-or-less the same, on every browser on every platform. Whether or not the page is or isnt optimised for that particular engine, and that engine is/isnt supported, you will still be able to view the page. Sure, you may not be able to see it exactly how it was intended to look, but you will get the general idea. If a webmaster what's everyone to be able to see his site in the same way, it's his responsibility to make sure it works on as many different platforms as possible.
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eSinner
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<blue.sca>
Text based browsers don't support features that have been standard for who knows how long... but will still bring up a page fairly well. Netscape 4.7 is ancient, and dillo is still in development. Why shouldn't the web developer have the right to expect his/her users to use a recent browser, supporting recent features. Regardless, one shouldn't expect pages to render correctly when using any of these alternatives you've mentioned. That's like expecting Linux to work on an old 286.

On everything else you've said, I agree, but until all browsers **DO** have standards compliance, web developers have the responsibility to make sure their work is rendered on as many browsers as is reasonably possible. Standards Compliance does not **YET** guarantee this. That is why I follow standards, plus also check in other browsers to make sure rendering is consistent.
</blue.sca>
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mtj
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eSinner wrote:
Exactly. Not really a hard thing to do when you consider that there is generally only 4 rendering engines in wide use. Khtml for konqueror and safari, gecko for Netscape, Firefox, Mozilla, Epiphany and so on, and, Opera, and Internet Explorer. I use KDE so Konq is already there. Opera is only 5 MB or so discounting deps which is basically only QT and a few small things, which happen to be there already due to having kde. Firefox I use because it's my favourite. IE is on my wife's Windows box, and there you have all 4, without going out of your way.

... which leaves out textbased browsers and netscape 4.x (you'd be surprised how many people out there still use that crap), as blue.sca has already mentioned. Furthermore this leaves out everything Mac-based, version differences (or do you really think that IE 4, 5, 5.5 and 6 render everything the same way?) and facts like OS dependency in cross OS engines (gecko rendering in windows looks totally different from the same engine on X). And then there's still some alternatives (hotjava, the reference w3c implementation browser "a-something", emacs w3c mode, the engine used in nautillus, etc.)

OK, it all depends on your pages, but (my opinion again) the most important thing is getting the information to the user. Design can only be second. Naturally, there's people, usually on the paying side of a contract, who see the web as one big flashy powerpoint presentation.... in that case, I concur that you have no options... ;)

eSinner wrote:

But....to each their own. :wink:


We agree on that, at least :)
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eSinner
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<mtj>
Agreed :wink:

Though design does play a huge role in efficiency of communication. Many many people will simply not take in information if not presented in an "exciting" way...as sad as it is. It's the age we live in. Personally, If I were God I'd still be insisting on 14.4 modems, and straight ansi/ascii text. Like back in the good old days of bulletin boards and so forth. Fortunately for the rest of the world, I'm not God.

For the record, Safari is the Mac OSX browser, and it uses the Khtml engine. but everything else you've said is spot on.
</mtj>

<levi>
Good point :)
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DaMouse
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I try to make my pages validate although with some of my magically unclosing <div>'s its hard :/

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