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Tables or CSS?
I use Tables!
15%
 15%  [ 16 ]
I use CSS!
80%
 80%  [ 82 ]
wtf? I want candy...
3%
 3%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 102

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servo888
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:14 am    Post subject: Website Layout: Table OR CSS Reply with quote

Do you use the good ol' Table design layout for your websites or the new CSS? Any reasons why? I like the table layout because you know it's going to work on most older browsers, and it's basic HTML.
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Slyde
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CSS
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Roguelazer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CSS. Table layout is one of the worst ways that you can create a page and still pass a validator test. Although I have used it on some sites, well, that was quite awhile ago. :P
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Mnemia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CSS positioning works fine on most browsers if you avoid the more advanced features or make sure that things still look good if the browser doesn't support them. Plus CSS offers a lot of other significant advantages such as cleaner HTML code and easier code reuse across different pages.

I consider supporting Netscape 4.x a lost cause at this point and I don't bother with it.
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phong
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're not completely mutually exclusive.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phong wrote:
They're not completely mutually exclusive.


Dont start on that H-MES compliance crap again, on that thought, i haven't seen homeobocks for a while
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Dont start on that H-MES compliance crap again, on that thought, i haven't seen homeobocks for a while


Blame my cat.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mnemia wrote:
CSS positioning works fine on most browsers if you avoid the more advanced features or make sure that things still look good if the browser doesn't support them. Plus CSS offers a lot of other significant advantages such as cleaner HTML code and easier code reuse across different pages.


I prefer CSS because the resulting HTML is cleaner, and because it makes sense to keep appearance details separate from content just as one ought to keep the UI separate from the actual program.

Mnemia wrote:
I consider supporting Netscape 4.x a lost cause at this point and I don't bother with it.


I too refuse to concern myself with Netscape 4.x, but I also refuse to concern myself with IE when working on my own site. If you want to visit my site, use a standards-compliant browser. I lost count of how many whine to me about how they can't use IE on my site. I just tell them to download Firefox.
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Mirrorball
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use tables you are going to die and go to hell. Good boys and girls use CSS.
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placeholder
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm totally sure what you're all talking about, but I suppose I use a mix of CSS and tables. I also use PHP in order to decrease bandwidth usage.
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Valhlalla
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I belive it is bad practice to disreguard any browser, many people use NN4.x I would like to use CSS as I prefer the clean code etc. but it renders differently on every browser, and so I usually end up with tables or if I have time both.
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oniq
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a mixture of the two on my site, but I'm slowly migrating away from tables. CSS is soo much easier, cleaner, and I can easily create styles for my site that'll allow me to change the design quickly.
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phong
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Dont start on that H-MES compliance crap again, on that thought, i haven't seen homeobocks for a while

No, I mean, you can use both (table and css layout) at the same time, or a mixture of the two.
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jevidl
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A really good demonstration of the power of CSS (once you get past the frustrating part of beating it into cross-compliance) can be found at http://www.csszengarden.com/

That site has some really beautiful layouts. Plus, if you use CSS, it is very easy to change the layout without recoding a bunch of pages. Just a few changes to an external stylesheet and BAM! Layout changed goodness without any of the tedium.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My tables are used in a single header and footer include that is used on all of my pages so I don't have to change much in order to change the layout, making it clean anyway.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phong wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Dont start on that H-MES compliance crap again, on that thought, i haven't seen homeobocks for a while

No, I mean, you can use both (table and css layout) at the same time, or a mixture of the two.


Oh i thought you meant the poll :lol:
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Sargonas
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally dont understand why anyone uses websites with layouts made by tables. Tables have their uses, but it isnt layout or templating. Tables for most major sites is horibly bandwith wasting, see this for details. CSS was developed as a standard for layouts. Use tools for what they are for.
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Goalie_Ca
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really prefer using css. I like seperating presesntation from data, in the good'ol xml fashion. I must concede that i use tables sometimes because they just work (tm).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to invite practically everyone on this thread to join and contribute to my wiki: Web Dev for the Masses. It's a site for promoting proper web development best practices. Eventually, it will have all the syntax for xhtml/css, but for now, it's mainly for planting the seeds of good web design.

Also, if anyone has any experience with setting up a wiki, let me know. This is all sort of new to me.
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nube
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CSS for layout and styles...

Tables still come in handy for displaying tabular data (imagine that...)

I recently decided to take a leave of absence from web development because I got tired of hacking my CSS files for IE. I've decided to stop designing for other people and just work on my own projects (where I can completely ignore Internet Explorer if I choose)

I also need to sit down and learn strict XHTML and php...
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superjaded
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pwnz3r wrote:
I also use PHP in order to decrease bandwidth usage.


PHP doesn't inherently decrease bandwidth usage.
PHP is a serverside programming language, meaning that the php code is actually executed on the server's end and converted into HTML and sent to the client. Those include statements you're using are basically saying cat header.php and footer.php to this.php and then send the output result to the client.

You ARE saving a some Kb of disk space because you've taken a part that you would otherwise be in each file and placed it in a central location, but since php is not parsed on the client side like CSS and javascript are, you aren't inherently saving any bandwidth by using php.

As far as the question at hand goes, even when I did use tables, I used CSS at the same time to define how I wanted the fonts inside the tables to look (specifying one td { font:blah; } is a lot easier than stick font tags in every td :), but nowadays I just use CSS plus some divs on the HTML end.

Although tables are still easier for data that needs to be evenly divided.. such as an online calendar for example. I have done something in CSS where alignment mattered with some absolute positioning and dynamic content, but although it seemed to render OK in IE, Opera was the odd man out and I believe it attmpted to render the whole page on one line. :P
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the moment I use tables to support NN4. I have been tracking the number of hits in the server logs and soon I should be able to make a case to my boss to let me ignore NN4.
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lisa
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who use tables to position content are going to hell.

Tables are for tabular data
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myuser
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problems are these ones:

Q. I want three or four columns of text, I want a footer at the bottom that spans the columns and I cannot be sure which will be the longest column.

A. Tables.

Show me the CSS code that is cross browser compliant (I will make it easier IE5 and above timeline). http://www.simplebits.com has some info on this one, I think he might have cracked it, but take a look at the code and he does update quite a bit to keep it working.

Q. I want navigation that is fixed at the top or the side and does not scroll when the information area is scrolled, yet again has to be cross browser compliant.

A. Frames

Two tricks exist with CSS for the above one is the use of fixed which is not cross compliant, the other is updating a div from an onscroll event which just looks awful.

Oh, and the CSS Zen Garden breaks on a number of browsers.

I like CSS but for layout it is not 100% there yet.
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Mirrorball
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Q. I want three or four columns of text, I want a footer at the bottom that spans the columns and I cannot be sure which will be the longest column.

A. Tables.


You would be able to use CSS tables if everyone used a real modern browser (Mozilla, Opera, Konqueror, Safari). IE doesn't support CSS tables.

Quote:

Oh, and the CSS Zen Garden breaks on a number of browsers.

I like CSS but for layout it is not 100% there yet.


Old browsers are not 100% and will never be 100%. Everyone should upgrade their browsers to Mozilla or Opera.
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