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aridhol
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashPat wrote:
BaronVonOwn wrote:
No, it's exactly the point. Heart attacks, lightning strikes, and terrorist attacks are risks just the same as STD's, and people willingly accept these risks everyday. When someone gets struck by lightning, you don't say, "he deserved it because he went outside!" But when someone gets an STD, you do say "he deserved it because he had sex!" My question is, why do you say one, but not the other?


What about the guy that weighs 300 pounds, smokes, and eats soley high fat food and has a history of heart disease in the family. When he has a heart attack does he deserve it? I say he does. He knew the risks and did nothing to eliminate them. Cause and effect.

I think that we can never understand each other because you sympathize way too much for people, and I sympathize very little for people. You have a strong sense of empathy, I have none.


Many that eat a lot are not mentally healthy. They are mentally ill, compulsive eaters for example. He must eat, but the more he eats, the worse he feels but still his illness tells him to eat more.

Is it his fault that he is ill? Some would say it is. Others would say it is not. It all depends on how deep you go when you search for risks.

If you go out to a bar and drink there is a risk that you drink too much. If you do and happen to be a girl, you can get raped. Does the girl then deserve to be raped? I say no.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashPat wrote:
What about the guy that weighs 300 pounds, smokes, and eats soley high fat food and has a history of heart disease in the family. When he has a heart attack does he deserve it? I say he does. He knew the risks and did nothing to eliminate them. Cause and effect.

Are you saying that most people don't recognize the risk that if they go to a high-profile area they may be killed by terrorists, or that people don't recognize that being outside brings the risk of being struck by lightning? If a person steps outside, they know that it's possible to be struck by lightning, and they do nothing to eliminate this risk, just the same as your guy.

The only out I see for you is to make up some wacky risk/reward and other gamblers' formulas to act as your proverbial line, and you'll have to justify this formula in moralistic terms, somehow.

Quote:
I think that we can never understand each other because you sympathize way too much for people, and I sympathize very little for people. You have a strong sense of empathy, I have none.

My points really don't have much to do with empathy. I think I've been perfectly logical, thus far.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashPat:
So if someone with an STD is reads your posts and takes offense, you wouldn't care because s/he deserved their STD. Correct? The interesting thing would be if they found out who were, drove to your house and shot you. We would all have to concur that you made a poor decision by posting inflammatory remarks on an Internet forum and thus you deserved to be shot :twisted:

While I find your view a little (understatement) harsh ... kudos for being consistent :D
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Authoritarian personalities prefer to portray the subject as a victim of their own poor judgement, too stupid, irresponsible, doped up, etc. to make the correct choice. The view that you choose to be in poverty because you make poor choices is classic horse before the tumbrel logic.

Poverty perpetuates itself - those who are in poverty have less advantages and so barring a few exceptions tend to remain in that stratum. There is freedom, but there are also real impediments to leaving poverty. Impoverished communities have a breakdown in the underpinning social structures and institutions, and the cycle continues. Why is american class often stratified along racial lines?

And it's not about empathy. A state doesn't offer a safety net because of empathy - it offers a safety net to keep the rabble from uprising.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaronVonOwn wrote:
CrashPat wrote:
What about the guy that weighs 300 pounds, smokes, and eats soley high fat food and has a history of heart disease in the family. When he has a heart attack does he deserve it? I say he does. He knew the risks and did nothing to eliminate them. Cause and effect.

Are you saying that most people don't recognize the risk that if they go to a high-profile area they may be killed by terrorists, or that people don't recognize that being outside brings the risk of being struck by lightning? If a person steps outside, they know that it's possible to be struck by lightning, and they do nothing to eliminate this risk, just the same as your guy.

The only out I see for you is to make up some wacky risk/reward and other gamblers' formulas to act as your proverbial line, and you'll have to justify this formula in moralistic terms, somehow.

Quote:
I think that we can never understand each other because you sympathize way too much for people, and I sympathize very little for people. You have a strong sense of empathy, I have none.

My points really don't have much to do with empathy. I think I've been perfectly logical, thus far.


Okay. I give up. You win. I'm wrong, you must be right. Here is medal.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

papal_authority wrote:
CrashPat:
So if someone with an STD is reads your posts and takes offense, you wouldn't care because s/he deserved their STD. Correct? The interesting thing would be if they found out who were, drove to your house and shot you. We would all have to concur that you made a poor decision by posting inflammatory remarks on an Internet forum and thus you deserved to be shot :twisted:

While I find your view a little (understatement) harsh ... kudos for being consistent :D


I guess so. Damnit. But from now on I will strive to change. I will no longer throw rocks at homeless people. :D And I will strive to no offend anybody over the internet. The risk is just too much!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, and a new record.

Today I've become a:

Authoritarian Sociopathic Darwinistic Fundamentalist

That is so going in my sig.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I don't know where to I start !
CrashPat wrote:
I hate it when people try to twist words to make it so I am saying things that I never said.
Fair enough I was kind of filling in the blanks, I don't mean to put words into to your mouth. Besides there's plenty to reply to without me having to do that ;) You've done it to me with the 'bleeding heart' and thinking sorrow has anything to do with this but I'll get onto that...

Quote:
I'm not christian
Good. That's christianity out of this.

CrashPat wrote:
So why are you unable to cope with the idea that my interpretation of deserve is vastly different from yours?
If we have a different interpretation of what deserve means this whole discussion goes out the window. It's at the crux of everything. If we think "He deserved that" means completly different things we may as well be talking a different language.

Look at my comment above to Stormy to see what I mean by deserve. I said it because there's a possility your deserve is my "can't complain about" i.e You:He deserves to be run over. Me:He can't complain about getting run over. You:He deserves to have HIV/AIDS Me:He can't complain about having HIV/AIDS

CrashPat wrote:
I am not a humanitarian, I've found that I am incapable of becoming one. To quote South Park
Quote:
Stan: Cartman, we feel bad for other people.
Carman: What? Freaking weirdos man

That pretty much sums it up for me.
It's not about pity. I'm very Nietzschean when it comes to pity. I don't want it and I don't offer it.

It's about accepting that we're fallible, that the world is bigger than we are. That we need other people. That to go it alone you have to be either a god or a beast, inevitably we aim for the first and usually end up being the latter.

That given a certain combination of events conspiring against us can knock us off track. No matter how much we want to be a certain type of person we might at a certain time need support in acheiving that.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tun wrote:


It's at the crux of everything. If we think "He deserved that" means completly different things we may as well be talking a different language.

Look at my comment above to Stormy to see what I mean by deserve. I said it because there's a possility your deserve is my "can't complain about" i.e You:He deserves to be run over. Me:He can't complain about getting run over. You:He deserves to have HIV/AIDS Me:He can't complain about having HIV/AIDS


That given a certain combination of events conspiring against us can knock us off track. No matter how much we want to be a certain type of person we might at a certain time need support in acheiving that.


I can't argue with that logic. At all. You are right, it is a language thing more than anything. I say deserve, you say he cannot complain.

And you are right. Nobody can do it on their own all of the time. Most of the time maybe, but everybody can use support sometimes.

I'm still glad I wasted my day arguing this because I got a new sig out of it. :D
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen 7 year old school girls get more accomplished in a conversation.

It all boils down to this:

There are two types of people in this forum, the people who blame the individual, and the person who says the individual is a victim of something(or someone) else.

Most people who claim the individual is a victim of something else probably majored, is majoring, or at least has taken sociology classes. But is almost definitely a social democrat. Nothing wrong with this. They live in a free world (notice I didn't specify the US) and have the right to say whatever the hell they want. This point of view is that somewhere along the line this 'victim' was screwed over by someone else (probably a right wing conservative fat cat republican bible banger).

It happens to be my opinion that ninety percent of the people that have their lives ruined is because they are a dumbass that consistantly makes bad decisions. Like the homeless woman with seven crack addicted children. I know, I know.. people are human and they make mistakes. But still, I think they could at least make an attempt to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get their life back together.

Case in point: I am a farmer and I help run a very sucessful business in the midwest. We have, on many occasions, offered jobs to homeless people and people living in substanderd housing and also people without jobs and living on welfare. We've extended this offer to more than 500 people and NOT ONE of the people took the job. Why is that?

I submit that there is a widening of the social classes (meaning the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer) because of a sort of social darwinism: If you work hard, you are rewarded and the lazy people who don't want to work get jack squat.

I think that's how it should be.
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Last edited by Duder on Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duder, you should not underestimate 7 year old schoolgirls.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashPat wrote:
I'm still glad I wasted my day arguing this because I got a new sig out of it. :D


Nice sig, asdf, it's got a ring to it :)

I don't put it down to an absolute right and wrong. I didn't agree with your point of view, but if you're prepared to live by it, then it's a valid point of view. Too many liberals on here can get you down ;)

I'm learning plenty off here too
Quote:
A state doesn't offer a safety net because of empathy - it offers a safety net to keep the rabble from uprising.

isn't something I'd considered fully before.

edit: When previewing just noticed duder's post which calls the liberal v right wing thing pretty well.
duder wrote:
There are two types of people in this forum, the people who blame the individual, and the person who says the individual is a victim of something else.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tun wrote:
edit: When previewing just noticed duder's post which calls the liberal v right wing thing pretty well.
duder wrote:
There are two types of people in this forum, the people who blame the individual, and the person who says the individual is a victim of something else.


I'm telling you, people.. I'm a friggin' genius.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: I love America by Tucker Max Reply with quote

Quote:
75% tax?


That's not what I said. I said that the average worker receives about a quarter of what he produces, before taxes.

Quote:
Unless you think that the company is not paying me enough for what I produced for them, in which case you are stupid.


Oh? So companies really need to make ten to twenty times what they did fifty years ago, in terms of profit... adjusted for inflation? All the while laying people off?

Quote:
Wow. Ignorance is bliss. I think that may be the first time I've heard that Henry Ford, of all people, invented the automobile. Wow. Have you ever attended school?


Settle down and read what I said again. What I said was that Ford didn't invent the automobile. And Bell didn't invent the telephone.

Quote:
Most companies that battle others for stolen technology are fighting over things like the double click. Something that a monkey could have came up with. Others, with legitimate claims, are paid for their ideas. Microsoft is not as evil as you think.


Um, that's nice. You said "most." I say "research Microsoft's history."

Quote:
You were just BITCHING about taxes, now you like them? Wow.


I understand that it is difficult to maintain your attention span, but I'd really appreciate it if you simply took breaks between passages. I wasn't bitching about taxes. I was bitching about the compensation for the average worker dropping over time, when adjusted for inflation.

Quote:
Oh, college makes you elite now? Bullshit.


Education consists of accquiring knowledge. Are you saying that ignorance makes you tough? I learned quite a lot from reading books, myself... but there are people who are experts in the inequality of this country (and all others).

Quote:
To paraphrase a teacher I had in high school. Life is not fair, get used to it. It was much more complicated than that, but the gist is the same.


I'm glad you could remember that deep thought for all of us.

Quote:
Life is not fair, it cannot be fair by design, if it was fair we would not have great thinkers like Einstien, we wouldn't have Thomas Jeffersons, we wouldn't have Olymipic athletes, we wouldn't have a lot of things that makes life great. Fairness is not a required thing in life, and should not be expected.


The only individual expecting fairness was the one originally posting about this, the perfect country.

Quote:
I think he was saying what is better right now? And what is? For me america works. I'm sure that I could be happy in any western culture though.


Ever been to Mexico? I don't mean getting drunk and humping cheerleaders in Cancun, I mean the downtown of Ciudad Juarez, or out in the country in Chihuahua.
And please capitalize America, as we veterans get a little upset about things like that ;-)

Quote:
I'm not seeing how tobacco being legal is a moral failure. Alcohol is regulated just fine. Hell its taxed heavily, made illegal to those under age, what more do you want? I've never heard of somebody being imprisoned for possession of drugs. Maybe a few days, a couple of weeks, not 20 years. I agree about same sex marriages, that is a moral failure, I'm not sure what the asset-forfeiture law is.


Alcohol kills more people than old age :-D Where ya been? I thought it was our job to reduce dangers to ourselves. And tobacco, Jesus, tobacco makes Hitler look like Barbie.
Asset-forfeiture law is present in certain states and has been much-abused. It was a basically good idea -- if you find evidence of drug dealing, you can confiscate assets that appear to be used in or are profits of such things. In other words, if some kid's strolling around in the ghetto and has five twenties on him with coke residue, you can confiscate it.
But it's been greatly misused. Someone can (technically) pull you over for something like "an improper lane change," check your wallet (90% of 20 dollar bills have coke residue) and then take all of your money, your car, any money you have in the bank, et cetera. You do not have to be found guilty of a crime. Look it up -- it's interesting.

Quote:
Good idea. A lot of what Tucker says sounds like he is uneducated, and he may be, I have no idea.


That's what I'm ranting against. You might argue with my opinions, but I argue with idiocy. For everything I say, you can come up with good refutations, and vice versa. The simple truth is that there is no simple truth. Declaring something as absolute as "US is the best!" draws my ire because I don't really believe he studied this topic too much. If I'm wrong about everything I said (which I don't believe), then he might just be right.

Quote:
At the time slaves were not really considered people. A wrong thinking of course. And it took nearly 200 years to fix. Now though everybody is the same in front of the courts. Except the rich, because they can buy better lawyers and pay people off. But if you truly are innocent, in most cases a jury of twelve will be able to figure it out.


But the remaining percentage troubles my mind. I seem to recall Jefferson (or some similar figure) saying "Better ten murderers go free than one innocent be jailed."

Quote:
Genocide? Never. Enslavement happened in every portion of the world. Every so called civilized portion. Colonists killed a lot of natives, but they really deserved it. We were no more brutal to them than they were to each other. We just kept coming and coming and coming. Genocide was not the goal, and it was never done. There are plenty of natives around still. Technology and disease killed them. It was basically a tribal war that ended with the white man winning. A really classic case of survival of the fittest.


We weren't necessarily fitter -- we had simply evolved better diseases. And better methods of killing each other. It's really quite simple -- if the natives were as violent as we were, they probably would have developed weapons of their own rather than using the same (suitable) hunting tools for thirty thousand years.

Quote:
They did it for wealth, not for tobacco addiction.


Um, dollars? CD-players? We addicted them to tobacco.

Anyway... since you obviously don't know me, I was in a little thing called the Navy for several years. Obviously because I hate this country so much, I entered into service to protect it from enemies both foreign and domestic. I love this country, in spite of its flaws -- that is why I'm here. If I didn't, I would have stayed in Germany or Canada.
There's this old saying, popular from the 60's (or before): "Love it or leave it." These big rednecks used to quote it to longhairs and intellectuals, meaning "If you don't love this country just the way it is, get your stinking commie ass out of here."

"Love it or leave it!" I agree totally. Love is not an emotion, though -- it is a behavior, or a course of action. I love this country the way it is, but more than that I love it enough to work to change problems with it. Loving something is not wanting to keep it locked up in a box, exactly the same, sealed in formaldehyde... it's trying to improve it, to keep it shining. If you love a woman, you don't insist on her doing an insane cosmetics and exercise routine to keep her looking eighteen -- you live and learn with her and do things that make her happy, while encouraging her to grow mentally and spiritually.
I try to solve the perceived problems with this country. Arrogance? Absolutely a problem. Economic inequality? Ditto. Illegal wars? You bet your ass. Unethical intelligence activities? Uh-huh.
If you're not going to bother to try to change this country, get the fuck out. The goal is not to maintain "an acceptable level of evil," whatever that is. The goal is to progress as a society so that we're all safer and happier and Stormy can do whatever he wants and not get bothered.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: I love America by Tucker Max Reply with quote

Quote:
Good idea. A lot of what Tucker says sounds like he is uneducated, and he may be, I have no idea.


Actually, he wrote this while attending the University of Chicago, he graduated and then attanded Duke Law School, one of the best law schools on the planet.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: I love America by Tucker Max Reply with quote

duder wrote:
Quote:
Good idea. A lot of what Tucker says sounds like he is uneducated, and he may be, I have no idea.


Actually, he wrote this while attending the University of Chicago, he graduated and then attanded Duke Law School, one of the best law schools on the planet.


But then, Bush attended Yale and Harvard...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: I love America by Tucker Max Reply with quote

kalisphoenix wrote:
duder wrote:
Quote:
Good idea. A lot of what Tucker says sounds like he is uneducated, and he may be, I have no idea.


Actually, he wrote this while attending the University of Chicago, he graduated and then attanded Duke Law School, one of the best law schools on the planet.


But then, Bush attended Yale and Harvard...


I think if you debated this guy, you'd walk away with a mouth full of your own ass.

What is your superior educational background?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: I love America by Tucker Max Reply with quote

duder wrote:
I think if you debated this guy, you'd walk away with a mouth full of your own ass.


A physical improbability.

Quote:
What is your superior educational background?


I ate out a community college cheerleader once.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tun wrote:

Nice sig, asdf, it's got a ring to it :)


w00t! Didn't even notice that. Guess I'm not quite good enough with pattern recognition... and I'm pretty good at that.

Kalis, I originally responded to your post only to see if I could piss you off. :) I did not read the new one, and will not. I think this thread was already pretty much killed, no sense in continuing to beat it. I really do not mean any offence in any of it, but I love to get a rise out of people by invoking my inner redneck, a rather small part of me that gets me into trouble all the time.

Duder -

I think that most people that debate Bush end up eating their own ass also.. and I do not even like the man at all.

I remember something about Tuckermax being in law school somewhere, but did not bother looking it up. Thanks for clarifying.

Anyway, my beer is empty, as is my belly... well except for the beer. I need to find some food and another AmberBock. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would drink some beer... except that it would void the three miles I just ran.. that and I am underage.. and I only have whiskey and Jaegermeister.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashPat wrote:
Tun wrote:

Nice sig, asdf, it's got a ring to it :)


w00t! Didn't even notice that. Guess I'm not quite good enough with pattern recognition... and I'm pretty good at that.

Kalis, I originally responded to your post only to see if I could piss you off. :) I did not read the new one, and will not. I think this thread was already pretty much killed, no sense in continuing to beat it.


Word. I'm pretty much burned out on politics, economics, philosophy, and damn near every other topic under the sun. Not sure why everyone thinks I'm so easily riled, though. I'm far too misanthropic to waste much blood pressure on a forum ;-)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalisphoenix wrote:
I'm pretty much burned out on politics, economics, philosophy, and damn near every other topic under the sun. Not sure why everyone thinks I'm so easily riled, though. I'm far too misanthropic to waste much blood pressure on a forum ;-)


Roger that..

Wierd how things seem like they get out of control in OTW.

In reality, I bet green money we'd have a kick ass night if we all went out drinking.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duder wrote:
Roger that..

Wierd how things seem like they get out of control in OTW.


That's why I generally prefer my own forum -- it's small (30 daily users), I know everyone, and the conversation is laid-back. I come here basically for Linux conversation, since I'm the only one (besides my non-techie girlfriend) on my forum to use Linux. Pure trickery gets me to stay ;-)

Quote:
In reality, I bet green money we'd have a kick ass night if we all went out drinking.


I agree 100%.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: more rants from me :) Reply with quote

america

land of the free
home of the brave
land of opportunity and freedom

americans are no more free that western europeans. americans are no better off in reguards to money or food than wester europe. america offers no more opportunity that western europe.

america is the land of hypocracy, lies, injustice, and moral control

in america, small groups of people control the moral flow of the country based on religeous beliefs. Gay marriage is illegal, multi-person marriages are illegal. any form of non-medicinal drugs are illegal. these rules are all based on moral guidelines of small groups of people who had the finances or opportunity to make their views law.

i don't care for gay marriage, or bigamy, and i certainly hate drugs. I don't see how i have the right to decide if another person can do these things and theirfore don't see how a government can dictate these things onto the population

in america, drugs are illegal unless the government profits. alcohol can only be sold when extensive taxes are paid on both manufacturing and sales. nicotine(sp?) is a drug more powerful than heroine but it can be distributed because the government taxes the sale so deeply that the loss in money would be devastating, so tobacco products are sold. what right does a government have to dictate the private and personal lives of human beings as long as their actions do not harm another without concent?

america is the source of modern western society and was and is crucial to the advancement of democracy in the world. i believe that on the whole, america is the best country to live in or at least in the top 5. but america is most certainly not almost perfect. not even close. tell me that british,french, german, danish, or swedish people ever see poverty and hunger.... they are modern countries with acceptional social systems in place so their people are comfortable and never go hungry. america DOES have poverty, america has people starving every minute of every day, children who can't help themselves, children that the government is supposed to care. these children are not helped because americas resources are being used somewhere else when they are needed.

i hate to misquote but the idea is sound.
"A Nation must be judged by its treatment of its children and its elderly" if this is the case, america is not on top and is on a downhill slide.

--

going to be now, be back tomarrow for more :)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: more rants from me :) Reply with quote

syadnom wrote:
in america, drugs are illegal unless the government profits.

Not true; most illegal drugs are illegal because of where they come from. Some South American countries would be devastated if drugs like cocaine were made legal because the value of it would drop enormously which would decrease the amount of money the country makes and kill it's economy.

Quote:
alcohol can only be sold when extensive taxes are paid on both manufacturing and sales.


Also not true, there actually isn't a huge tax on alcohol in America, not to mention that some states don't even HAVE a sales tax; eg, deleware and I think nebraska are the only ones that come to mind.

Quote:
nicotine(sp?) is a drug more powerful than heroine

No it is not. Most people are addicted to heroin after trying it ONE time. I also never read anything about women prostituting themselves for a pack of smokes. That statement is so incredibally false it almost pisses me off.



That's it, I don't feel like going through your post anymore. Do some research and try again. Back up your claims with some facts.
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