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Stormy Eyes vs. The World. >^..^<
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papal_authority
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea. Garbage in, garbage out -- remember?

Good point.
Thread Title wrote:
Stormy Eyes vs. The World

My money's on Stormy Eyes :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Principles... Reply with quote

jhjessup wrote:
How would you difine coersion? or being used as a tool?

(Yeah, I know, low post count :oops: )


I define coercion as harm or threatened harm to an individual's life, liberty, or property. If I hold a knife to your throat, I am coercing you. If I threaten to firebomb your house, I am coercing you. But if you come to me because I am the only person in town who can provide a particular service, and I refuse to provide that service, then I am not coercing you.

If you coerce others into actions they would not freely take, or manipulate them by means of lies and fraud, then you are using them as tools. This is the reason I despise marketing people: marketing depends not on announcing the availability of a product or service, but upon inducing people to think that they must have it in order to be happy. It's a fucking lie.

And I don't give a shit about low post counts as long as you actually have something to say.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
ahhhh Stormy, so you dont believe that we should be "bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards others"? or that we should not interfere with another person when it does not affect us or society?


Bound by what? Our self-interest? God? Santa Claus? Society? The government? As I understand it, reason suggests that if I want to be free, then I must allow others to be free as well. If I want to own my life, then I must act as though others own theirs. I must not harm others if I do not wish to be harmed myself.


That is exactly what it is saying but i dont understand your next quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
But harming society? Fuck society.


Stormy Eyes wrote:
There is no society without individuals. I'll tattoo it into your forehead if I have to.


Tattooing it on my forehead would be a violation of your principles :wink: Anyone, every single one of us are individuals so what has that got to do with anything?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
i agree with most of your principles but i feel some are too simplistic for the complicated lives we lead today


Which ones? And who says my life is complicated?

The popular conclusion is you live in the Western world -> your life if complicated.

Anyway, your worldview is highly simplistic. I would can it insufficient. If the world was that simple, and everybody acted morally, respectfully and were kind to each other, I would agree totally with all your views. But if they were applied as law (they'd probably need rephrasing for detail in such a case) on a modern day society, that society would fail (supposing that the goal of society is that everybody is happy) just as miserably as the fascistic version of communism did back then.

Why? Because you forget history. People were opressed. They are now unable to get out of poverty, regardless of how much initiative would help them. A good example is the blacks in America (afro-americans, or whatever the politically correct term du jour is) - they were brought there as slaves, and raised for generations with the knowledge that they are inferior to the white 'race'. The result? They lose all faith and pride, and thereby the initiative (as you mention yourself) to better their own position.
Now, after the white American overclass misused, exploited and coerced the black race in America, are they now just going to say "Well, we're sorry, but you can sail your own sea. Helping you is of no benefit to us now, so you might as well fuck off".
If the self-despair expressed by the current generation of blacks is inheritable, so must the responsibility on the shoulders of the white people who brought their misery about.

Now, if the above wasn't the case and everyone lived happily and contently, your system might work. But until then, you can't ignore the poor. It might not have been their own fault, as it is being taught to you Americans...

- Simon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amasidlover wrote:
I'm curious, what happens under your principles to those who are unlucky (or even plain lazy)? Do we simply let them starve to death on the streets? Am I being stupid, have I missed something?


You've missed the fact that since you are sovereign and own your own life, it is your choice to decide whether or not you are willing to extend charity to the unlucky (or the lazy). Because of my principles, I believe in letting people choose to be kind rather than forcing them to be "good" for "goodness' sake".

I don't want any clockwork oranges in my "perfect world".
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see, it works on the presumption that enough people will be charitable to support all of the poor/stupid/lazy/unfortunate, in the same way that communism assumes that people will work for the greater good because it improves their own lives (indirectly)....

Do you seriously believe it could work or is this just your hypothetical utopia?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go Stormy, you can be libertarian president next time around. :D
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Selfish people create their own selfish reasons, or read selfish authors... hint hint.... lol
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cossins wrote:
The popular conclusion is you live in the Western world -> your life if complicated.


I think we both know what I thnk about popular conclusions. I get up in the morning, attend to my grooming, make breakfast for my lady and myself if it's my turn, kiss her goodbye, and go off to earn my living. Then I come home, greet my lady and make a fuss over her, take my turn making dinner, and spend the night either writing, or reading, or watching a movie. Sometimes we spend time with friends or go out to a show or a rock concert. If this is complicated, then there's somethng wrong with you.

Cossins wrote:
Anyway, your worldview is highly simplistic. I would can it insufficient. If the world was that simple, and everybody acted morally, respectfully and were kind to each other, I would agree totally with all your views.


That is not my problem. I cannot control how others act. I cannot be the captain of another man's soul. I can only control my actions and be the captain of my soul. And the principles I've adopted have guided me well over the years. That is enough for me. If it's not enough for you, that's your problem.

Cossins wrote:
But if they were applied as law (they'd probably need rephrasing for detail in such a case) on a modern day society, that society would fail (supposing that the goal of society is that everybody is happy) just as miserably as the fascistic version of communism did back then.


The only principles I would dare codify as law would be the principles of self-ownership and the non-aggression principle. Each individual owns himself, and you may not initiate force. Without those principles in place, you cannot have any kind of meaningful interpersonal interaction.

Cossins wrote:
Why? Because you forget history. People were opressed.


That is not my problem. I did not oppress these people, I did not cause their misery, and there is nothing I can do to alleviate it. What I can do is avoid actions that add to their misery by adhering to my principles.

Cossins wrote:
Now, if the above wasn't the case and everyone lived happily and contently, your system might work. But until then, you can't ignore the poor. It might not have been their own fault, as it is being taught to you Americans...


My system, like Linux, works for me. And, since I am not doing anybody any harm, you have no reason to tell me that my principles are harmful to others or wrong in any meaningful way.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
Go Stormy, you can be libertarian president next time around. :D


You have to wait until 2016. I'm only 25.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amasidlover wrote:
I see, it works on the presumption that enough people will be charitable to support all of the poor/stupid/lazy/unfortunate, in the same way that communism assumes that people will work for the greater good because it improves their own lives (indirectly)....

Do you seriously believe it could work or is this just your hypothetical utopia?


Yes, I seriously think that it can work. Look at the good the Red Cross does. Look at the good Habitat for Humanity does. Look at the organizations dedicated to raising money to fund research that can lead to treatments and cures for devastating diseases like cystic fibrosis and leukemia. People give freely to these organizations and others.

I give to these organizations because I want to see an end to human misery. Without misery, there is no need for the false comfort of religion and no need to worship tyrannical Gods who demand that men turn their backs on their human nature to earn some promised heaven.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Cossins wrote:
Why? Because you forget history. People were opressed.


That is not my problem. I did not oppress these people, I did not cause their misery, and there is nothing I can do to alleviate it. What I can do is avoid actions that add to their misery by adhering to my principles.

Whose problem is it? Is it their own problem they were destroyed by your forefathers' actions?

- Simon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cossins wrote:
Whose problem is it? Is it their own problem they were destroyed by your forefathers' actions?


No, its my forefathers' problem. It was their crime, and the blood is on their hands. My hands are clean, and so is my conscience. Who are you to say that I should pay for another's crimes?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Cossins wrote:
Whose problem is it? Is it their own problem they were destroyed by your forefathers' actions?


No, its my forefathers' problem. It was their crime, and the blood is on their hands. My hands are clean, and so is my conscience. Who are you to say that I should pay for another's crimes?

Well, since the poor still pay for your forefathers' luxury, and by the way for the economical success of the US, I should think you owed them something...

(No, without the slaves, on which American society still is built, now they're just from Mexico, you wouldn't have half of what you got now)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cossins wrote:
Well, since the poor still pay for your forefathers' luxury, and by the way for the economical success of the US, I should think you owed them something...


I owe them nothing.

I personally have done nothing to oppress the poor. Why then should I accept either responsibility or guilt for their suffering? I will not accept unearned responsbility or unearned guilt, Cossins. If you want to feel guilty about matters beyond your control, that's your choice. Don't expect me to agree with it or choose as you have done.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now we're talking about slavery reparations? Please. I love this European fantasy that "America was built on slavery". Yeah.. well where did we get the idea from? Who brought them here? Who's ultimately responsible for it? What other nations and continents can you think of that were "built on slavery" as you so loosely use the term?

It's Europe for one. So let them pay the toll. How'd you like that?

Moreover, if you look at where the slaves came from, they'd be worse off if they had stayed there. They were sold by their own people and they're still over there throwing spears at each other. Not that it justifies it, but you have to look at the whole picture.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what he is trying to say is that you have no problem living in the fruits of that opression
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
what he is trying to say is that you have no problem living in the fruits of that opression

By what logic? I daresay neither do you, European. If anyone is "responsible" in today's society, it would be you just as much as any American.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
Now we're talking about slavery reparations? Please. I love this European fantasy that "America was built on slavery". Yeah.. well where did we get the idea from? Who brought them here? Who's ultimately responsible for it? What other nations and continents can you think of that were "built on slavery" as you so loosely use the term?

It's Europe for one. So let them pay the toll. How'd you like that?

Moreover, if you look at where the slaves came from, they'd be worse off if they had stayed there. They were sold by their own people and they're still over there throwing spears at each other. Not that it justifies it, but you have to look at the whole picture.


We saw the wrong 150 years ago, you were still at it 20 years ago and probably are still at it today
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
We saw the wrong 150 years ago, you were still at it 20 years ago and probably are still at it today

Nah, my backyard is pretty free of slavery.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StormyEyes, I like your politics. I strongly disagree with your religion, but I like your politics! :)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
We saw the wrong 150 years ago, you were still at it 20 years ago and probably are still at it today


I don't have any slaves. But I am my lady's love-slave from time to time. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhjessup wrote:
StormyEyes, I like your politics. I strongly disagree with your religion, but I like your politics! :)


Thanks. But, if you wanted to be precise, you have to say that you disagree with my lack of religion. :)

To be honest, I have a beautiful woman to worship. And if that isn't enough, I can stand in awe of the universe itself, and wonder at the ability of man to comprehend its workings.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You as a country. I'm sorry but you still represent your country as far as your country is concerned
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
You as a country. I'm sorry but you still represent your country as far as your country is concerned


In what capacity? I have no official title. I'm just a fucking nobody who pays tribute because it's slightly better than being imprisoned. I don't represent anybody but myself. Don't make me paraphrase Tyler Durden again; I dislike nihilistic writing.
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