Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
So, when is paludis replacing portage
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dE_logics
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 2253
Location: $TERM

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: So, when is paludis replacing portage Reply with quote

Funny, I haven't even tried it.

My question is, what is going on with Gentoo? If Paludis is suppose to be Portage replacement, then why are the devs still developing Portage?

If it's not a replacement why do we have it?...what's its point?

Does paludis use make.conf, package.*?...ok, I'll see all that from the man page.
_________________
My blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pigeon768
l33t
l33t


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 675

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

never.

Paludis is not an official part of Gentoo. You're free to use it if you so chose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dE_logics
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 2253
Location: $TERM

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are they planning to improve portage or something; I mean paludis is liked by most Gentoo users, so why are they not replacing it.

Are they planning to improve portage to the paludis level?

Apparently, it itself takes lots of time to compile.
_________________
My blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 985
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure where you get the idea that most gentoo users like paludis. I'm perfectly happy with portage and I'd wager that most gentoo users would probably stick with portage instead of learning an entirely new package manager.
_________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a guy at my university's Linux usesr's group trying to convert me to Exherbo and Palaudis and I keep saying that I am happy with Gentoo. I actually did install Palaudis because of him, but it seems to have a steep learning curve and it appears to be less functional than Portage (e.g. it has no support for the creation of binary packages). It seems more to be a downgrade in more ways than it seems to be an improvement.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Genone
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9236
Location: beyond the rim

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignoring any technical issues on either side, paludis is very unlikely to become a core Gentoo component simply for political/historical reasons.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
Ignoring any technical issues on either side, paludis is very unlikely to become a core Gentoo component simply for political/historical reasons.


Would you elaborate as to why?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dol-sen
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 2803
Location: Richmond, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Would you elaborate as to why?


Short version: personality/ideology conflicts with the primary dev.
Long version: search for yourself.

There is another alternative named pkgcore which is also coded ion python and is much faster, easier to extend, has some better diagnostic tools. It is still lacking the the full feature set of portage, but is quite stable. In fact it started life as portage-3, a totally re-designed code structure optimized for speed, memory useage, adapability.
_________________
Brian
Porthole, the Portage GUI frontend irc@freenode: #gentoo-guis, #porthole, Blog
layman, gentoolkit, CoreBuilder, esearch...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dol-sen wrote:
Quote:
Would you elaborate as to why?


Short version: personality/ideology conflicts with the primary dev.
Long version: search for yourself.

There is another alternative named pkgcore which is also coded ion python and is much faster, easier to extend, has some better diagnostic tools. It is still lacking the the full feature set of portage, but is quite stable. In fact it started life as portage-3, a totally re-designed code structure optimized for speed, memory useage, adapability.


Why is Gentoo still using portage 1.7.x if portage 3 was put into development?

Also, why was portage being rewritten from scratch in Python? I imagine rewriting it in C or C++ would be a better choice, because it would eliminate Gentoo's dependence on python.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigeon768 wrote:
never.

Paludis is not an official part of Gentoo. You're free to use it if you so chose.


Never since the Paludis is dead.

Cave will replace Paludis if you check some blogs on the net.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
pigeon768 wrote:
never.

Paludis is not an official part of Gentoo. You're free to use it if you so chose.


Never since the Paludis is dead.

Cave will replace Paludis if you check some blogs on the net.


Why is it dead?

Edit: I found out why:

http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/paludis-is-going-into-a-cave/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dE_logics
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 2253
Location: $TERM

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dol-sen wrote:
Long version: search for yourself.


Apparently, I did not get anything, that's why I asked.

And what's this Exherbo?...the project is premature. What prompted a few Gentoo devs to start a complete new project.


BTW it was not a good idea to to make commands of Paludis COMPLETELY different from that of emerge.

BTW Exherbo devs do have attitude -

Quote:
lxnay> i'm the sabayon linux chief arch
lxnay> Just wanna know the implications of integrating paludis
ciaranm> you use binaries, right?
ciaranm> paludis doesn't do binaries currently, and when it does it will use a different format
ciaranm> that's probably the big issue...
ciaranm> other than that there's nothing major. with 0.26 we'll even be able to do special
distribution-specific stuff for you... you'd just need to give us a .conf file for your
distro and compile with --with-default-distribution=sabayon
lxnay> well if you devs are interested in sabayon, just contact me
ciaranm> lxnay: we don't care about sabayon, in that none of us use it. but we have no objection
to supporting it, if there's demand from users
lxnay> bah
lxnay> die alone then
-!- lxnay has left #paludis


So what was the point of this distribution. And I really hope Gentoo doesn't get ruined cause of politics and 'historical reasons'.

dol-sen wrote:

There is another alternative named pkgcore which is also coded ion python and is much faster, easier to extend, has some better diagnostic tools. It is still lacking the the full feature set of portage, but is quite stable. In fact it started life as portage-3, a totally re-designed code structure optimized for speed, memory useage, adapability.


I got a bad feeling about this.

Shining Arcanine wrote:

I imagine rewriting it in C or C++ would be a better choice, because it would eliminate Gentoo's dependence on python.


That's a small dependency dude, does it matter? But I think a scripting language for portage not good...they are slow.

d2_racing wrote:
Cave will replace Paludis if you check some blogs on the net.


I think that's what happens if a distro consists of more administrators and Devs than users.

Anyway, since I don't have problems learning, I am trying out Paludis.
_________________
My blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dE_logics
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 2253
Location: $TERM

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy shit!! even the config files of Paludis ain't common to Portage! It appears as if they wanted to kill Portage than do something better.

Quote:
emerge --unmerge paludis


Who wants to use a dead thing anyway?
_________________
My blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dol-sen
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 2803
Location: Richmond, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dE_logics, give pkgcore a try. It uses the same portage config files, and is interchangeable with portage for side by side comparison and compatibility. You'll see that pkgcore is way, waaaayy, faster.
_________________
Brian
Porthole, the Portage GUI frontend irc@freenode: #gentoo-guis, #porthole, Blog
layman, gentoolkit, CoreBuilder, esearch...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dE_logics wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:

I imagine rewriting it in C or C++ would be a better choice, because it would eliminate Gentoo's dependence on python.


That's a small dependency dude, does it matter? But I think a scripting language for portage not good...they are slow.


The fact that Python is slow is the reason why I think eliminating Gentoo's dependence on python by rewriting portage with C or C++ would be a good thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Genone
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9236
Location: beyond the rim

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shining Arcanine wrote:
The fact that Python is slow is the reason why I think eliminating Gentoo's dependence on python by rewriting portage with C or C++ would be a good thing.

Why do people still fall for this myth? The implementation language doesn't have a major impact on performance, IO-operations are slow in any language. The architecture and data models are the bottleneck (that includes both the PM and the repository format), and those are hard to change.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
M
Guru
Guru


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paludis as a project is not dead, cave will be just a new client. Also, maybe egress will be produced, a client that will be command line compatible with emerge.
I use paludis for years and it is difficult for me now to switch back to portage, paludis have a really good features which I will miss like uninstall --with-unused-dependencies , --report, sets, working with overlays is slightly better, with pretend I know exactly which package pulls dependencies etc.
I don't care about speed, I didn't notice any difference compared with portage, and why should I care about couple of seconds if compiling will take 1h for example. Also I don't care and am not interested about political reasons, devs fight etc. I just use what works better for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5673
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shining Arcanine wrote:
dE_logics wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:

I imagine rewriting it in C or C++ would be a better choice, because it would eliminate Gentoo's dependence on python.


That's a small dependency dude, does it matter? But I think a scripting language for portage not good...they are slow.


The fact that Python is slow is the reason why I think eliminating Gentoo's dependence on python by rewriting portage with C or C++ would be a good thing.


is it? write better code. If there are some CPU-intensive operations (and it can be shown to be CPU bound) then offload of a C python extension. There is a reason why numpy runs circles around matlab for matrix manipulation and matlab is the industry standard

Python is an interpreted language, if you use the lower-level python stuff todo an operation you are more than likely to experience speed problems. If you can offload to a higher-level function you can get better performance. Key example a for loop when compared to a list comprehension.


learn the tool and how best to leverage it.


Also if C/C++ is soo fast (by extension from your statement that python is slow when compared to C/C++) why is paludis (C++ based) slow compared to portage and pkgcore (plenty of benchmarks out there).



But yer pkgcore is great! I used it for some time but an annoying but w.r.t. slotted kernel versions and the @installed set had me revert to portage22 which does the job nicely.
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sera
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 1017
Location: CET

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dE_logics wrote:
Holy shit!! even the config files of Paludis ain't common to Portage! It appears as if they wanted to kill Portage than do something better.

Quote:
emerge --unmerge paludis


Who wants to use a dead thing anyway?


Paludis wasn't intended as a replacement as far as I see it and started more as demonstration/experiment of what's actually possible in package management and off course to point out what's wrong with portage.
At that time ricing was en vogue and ciaranm couldn't bare with it. This can be clearly seen till today.
Paludis has binary package support, cave is available on gentoo and many more things. However they are not deemed as good enough and so are not documented and in fact the user is on his own when using them.

The paludis configuration might seem overdone at first, however it's far more consistent and powerful. Pkgcore as far as I know does now also support paludis style configuration. Paludis also supports portage stile configuration. However you always cripple a package manager when using an others format. Pkgcore uses an ini style configuration, so paludis' configuration is probably closer to what you are used to.

As for paludis is dead there is to add that paludis is mostly a package management library and the only thing to be deprecated is the client named paludis. Even after announcing the deprecation at some point the paludis client has seen major improvements. The complete opposite of how KDE does things.

Both Paludis and Pkgcore offer powerful querying tools, so they are worthwhile to have around even when you insist on using portage for all operations which change the state of the system. A gui client(qt4) for paludis is in development btw.

Personally I like the fact that there are 3 different package managers available. As it greatly helps to develop the PMS which I see as a cornerstone of Gentoo.

@Shining Arcanine: Speed is largely irrelevant compared to correctness and python is not a problematic dependency on Linux and finally python can easily use parts written in C.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:
The fact that Python is slow is the reason why I think eliminating Gentoo's dependence on python by rewriting portage with C or C++ would be a good thing.

Why do people still fall for this myth? The implementation language doesn't have a major impact on performance, IO-operations are slow in any language. The architecture and data models are the bottleneck (that includes both the PM and the repository format), and those are hard to change.


After all I/O is done and data is in memory, actual calculations (such as what will be installed/upgraded/etcetera) will be slow because they are interpreted.

Naib wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:
dE_logics wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:

I imagine rewriting it in C or C++ would be a better choice, because it would eliminate Gentoo's dependence on python.


That's a small dependency dude, does it matter? But I think a scripting language for portage not good...they are slow.


The fact that Python is slow is the reason why I think eliminating Gentoo's dependence on python by rewriting portage with C or C++ would be a good thing.


is it? write better code. If there are some CPU-intensive operations (and it can be shown to be CPU bound) then offload of a C python extension. There is a reason why numpy runs circles around matlab for matrix manipulation and matlab is the industry standard

Python is an interpreted language, if you use the lower-level python stuff todo an operation you are more than likely to experience speed problems. If you can offload to a higher-level function you can get better performance. Key example a for loop when compared to a list comprehension.


learn the tool and how best to leverage it.


Also if C/C++ is soo fast (by extension from your statement that python is slow when compared to C/C++) why is paludis (C++ based) slow compared to portage and pkgcore (plenty of benchmarks out there).



But yer pkgcore is great! I used it for some time but an annoying but w.r.t. slotted kernel versions and the @installed set had me revert to portage22 which does the job nicely.


There are two factors here. The first is the algorithms being used. The second is the technology being used (binary code versus interpreted code). Algorithms will usually make the largest difference, especially if you do a particularly bad job of designing them. If the algorithms are the same, then the technology used becomes the differentiating factor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5673
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there you have it then ;)
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
there you have it then ;)


I fail to see your point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sera
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 1017
Location: CET

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
there you have it then ;)

:)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shining Arcanine
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you guys are using mechanical hard drives. I am using a SSD and I do not view disk I/O as a bottleneck. :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@dE_logics, I'm not surprise at all by the Exherbo project team or even the Paludis project.

And by the way, Cave means AssHole in French, so what else to say :P


Last edited by d2_racing on Sat May 15, 2010 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum