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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: ATI X800 series Reply with quote

Hi,

I have just buy an Asus video card with a X800 Pro chip, i wasn't aware of it so this post is to prevent other users fall in the gap...

There is simply no support in Linux for ATI X800 video cards, no drivers exists yet after checking this forum, ATI www, Asus www, DRI www...
ATI drivers for Linux are so old, i can safelly says, none will come soon (and if they put one later, buy the card later at a cheaper price).

So: DON'T BUY IT! The card is only working in vesa mode...

I have send email to Asus and ATI... Will post answers (if i have any)

ps: please, don't tell me to use ATI drivers... I have try anything, they are just too old (3.9.0) and my XFree log tell me it's an unknown chipset...
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John5788
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooh that sucks alot, can you return the card and get a nvidia 6800 instead?
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riven
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ati's drivers don't support most of their cards. I can't get any 3D acceleration on any of driver version for my 9800XT.

I think returning it for an nvidia would be wise, the ati drivers get updated about once every 2 months (apparently) and in the last update 2 things were fixed one of which was a minor thing that wasnt really to do with the drivers anyway.
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Merlin-TC
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's sad to say but it's true.
In windows ATI cards are really good but if you want to go with linux your only choice is nvidia right now.

Even if you get the ATI drivers to work with your card it will be terribly slow.
I have a 9800Pro and UT is slow...and I mean slow. It worked a lot better with my old NV Ti4600.

In windows it works like a charm of course.

I really wished that ATI would make good linux drivers or in your case at least support the card.
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phekko
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess at this point (what with the whole linux user community screaming and ranting their a**es off) it must be a deliberate decision by ATI not to waste any time/money supporting Linux. That sorta sucks as that gives NVidia a monopoly in the Linux gamer market and probably alienates quite a few other types of Linux users from ATI, too.

Too bad, since having more alternatives is always good. Then again, I own 3 different NVidia cards and have been happy with all of them so I can't say that I would change to ATI without a very good reason.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad i was with a Ti4200 and i was enjoying it, i want change to a more powerful card, and because of slot/power problem of the new 6800 i have choose the ATI's one.

Today: no answer from asus and ati (i didn't really expect one in fact, as i have saw in their website i can say they *** on linux)

I'm just so unhappy of ATI, i'm now stick with a useless card ! that cost me 480€ (near 450$?) and i can't play anything with it, even the desktop sucks and movie are slow with the vesa drivers. A true shame.

I will try return it (and that will be a nightmare i'm sure)...

Maybe i repeat myself: DO NOT BUY THIS CARD :(
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sindre
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw. Official Doom 3 Benchmarks by ID.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why did you show me that ?

- Do you think ATI will add linux drivers because of a Doom3 NOT for linux !
- The question, "Is my box OK for playing DOOM 3?" (from article): answer is NO: YOUR 3D CARD DOESN'T WORK WITH ALL GAMES IN LINUX.


I'm really sad to see ID software will only ship box version of Doom3 for windows (don't kick me, linux version on download section soon), but you will still gives money for a product that will be considered buy by "a windows user" (not talking about the stupid install we will "try" to run with wine)

I'm also really sad to see how much people enjoy wineX (cedega), transgaming doesn't help Linux community, transgaming just help windows users playing with Linux (not using it).

Cedega is an emulator ! Now think about it: Why an editor will make a Linux box version of a game when he can just make a windows version and leave transgaming "patching" their emulator to make it works...

btw: maybe this post should be move to games (seems more related than multimedia now, my fault, can someone do that?)
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bonestockr6
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't wait until ATI get's on the ball and starts producing drivers that are worth installing. .. .grrr . .. In a timely fashion, as well!
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psofa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it will be too late for them anyway at least for me! my next card will be nvidia
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonestockr6 wrote:
I can't wait until ATI get's on the ball and starts producing drivers that are worth installing. .. .grrr . .. In a timely fashion, as well!


Can't wait ATI... ???

Are you crazy ??? I'm not sure ATI does as Nvidia (never get one before that one) for version numbering but :
ATI drivers for windows is 4.7
ATI drivers for linux is 3.9

Aren't you scare ? Don't you see a problem somewhere??? For me, i have lost hope (well i keep faith, all i have now, faith and an X800 card that doesn't work)...

Hey guys, follow up instructions to taste an ATI X800 Pro
> nano /etc/X11/XF86Config-4
> Search <Driver "xxx"> Replace with <Driver "vesa">
> save it
> startx (have fun, you're a lucky owner of a top card now, thx ATI)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
I'm also really sad to see how much people enjoy wineX (cedega), transgaming doesn't help Linux community, transgaming just help windows users playing with Linux (not using it).

Cedega is an emulator ! Now think about it: Why an editor will make a Linux box version of a game when he can just make a windows version and leave transgaming "patching" their emulator to make it works...


Do you honestly believe that more publishers would release their games for Linux if it weren't for Transgaming? I don't think they could care any less about the Linux platform. It's either investing a lot of money in a port that won't sell and loose money on it, or make a really cheap port that works like, well, a really cheap port (I'd still prefer the WineX way then).
And secondly, WineX isn't an emulator, it's a compatibility layer. You're not using Windows when you're using WineX.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, to be honest, i prefer a whole community crying for games than transgaming solution...

Newspaper, website... many sources keep tracking linux growth as desktop OS...

Now if even just 2% users have Linux as desktop platform, and NO games at all run in it, one day someone will want grab that 2% market for himself...
Today, it's hard for a compagny that make an online FPS game to not do a native linux version (still not ship as a box, but can be update with linux files). Why that? Because all servers that runs that kind of games are mostly unix/linux platform for its stability... So Linux as take a so good part running fps game servers that editors feel a little bit thief to not release also the game for linux players...
All the percent i have gives are purelly fictionnal (and 2% isn't really high anyway), but i'm sure you will be surprise if a survey was done to see what kind of OS is running "UT, RTCW..." servers...

With transgaming solution, none care if linux got 2% or 25% market as they (game editors) knows users can play game (in a crappy maner, but who care) with an EMULATOR.

Now if you want play words... Even it is build from scratch (with own source code), even its integration to original system is really high, it's still an emulator as its primary purpose is to run other API, code... not native to that system.

Not sure i'm clear but:
Quote:
WineX isn't an emulator, it's a compatibility layer. You're not using Windows when you're using WineX
Sure if you were using Windows when using WineX: we will just call it Windows (as a pure portage to linux) or a clone if not made by ms
But your "compatibility layer" usage is to do what ? ... make windows programs run under linux... -> emulator.

And to cite WineHQ:
Quote:
Think of Wine as a Windows compatibility layer
Just "Think" is to simplify, don't take it as-is...
Quote:
Wine provides both a development toolkit (Winelib) for porting Windows sources to Unix
I can say it's porting this time, so compatibility could apply (but how many users use it like that? ask yourself how many windows source code you have taken and adapt with that program to linux)
Quote:
and a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows binaries to run on x86-based Unixes
Unmodified = emulator...

Last (this time transgaming lovers will kill me without thinking): I don't know how much fee transgaming ask to use their software, but what i'm sure, is that it might be cheaper to buy a REAL windows copy instead of paying all your life a fee by month just to TRY make some games running...
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sindre
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
And why did you show me that ?

- Do you think ATI will add linux drivers because of a Doom3 NOT for linux !
- The question, "Is my box OK for playing DOOM 3?" (from article): answer is NO: YOUR 3D CARD DOESN'T WORK WITH ALL GAMES IN LINUX.


I'm really sad to see ID software will only ship box version of Doom3 for windows (don't kick me, linux version on download section soon), but you will still gives money for a product that will be considered buy by "a windows user" (not talking about the stupid install we will "try" to run with wine)

I'm also really sad to see how much people enjoy wineX (cedega), transgaming doesn't help Linux community, transgaming just help windows users playing with Linux (not using it).

Cedega is an emulator ! Now think about it: Why an editor will make a Linux box version of a game when he can just make a windows version and leave transgaming "patching" their emulator to make it works...

btw: maybe this post should be move to games (seems more related than multimedia now, my fault, can someone do that?)
Becuase Doom 3 is the most modern opengl game, and will probably be for quite some time. Additionally lots of games will be based on this engine. These are the games that might be available for linux and challenge your 3d card the most. It's therefore interesting to see how new 3d-cards perform in this if you're buying a 3d-card. In conclusion nvidia owns ati in opengl performance, which also is the only considerable 3d api used on linux, and if you add to this that ati's linux-drivers suck, noone in their right mind would buy an ati 3d-card for use in a linux computer.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, How can doom3 engine could challenge the X800 under Linux ?

Look a challenging program on my card :
glxgears
glxgears: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libGL.so.1: cannot read file data: Error 21
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sindre
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You obviously didn't understand any of what I wrote.
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riven
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="krinn"]
bonestockr6 wrote:

Hey guys, follow up instructions to taste an ATI X800 Pro
> nano /etc/X11/XF86Config-4
> Search <Driver "xxx"> Replace with <Driver "vesa">
> save it
> startx (have fun, you're a lucky owner of a top card now, thx ATI)


using vesa drivers defeats the object of a 3D card. they will only be able to run it in 2D and at a painfully low refresh rate. It wont give a taste of the X800 because its barely utilising any of the card, it gives the most basic viewing support.
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Merlin-TC
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@riven: But you do know that the vesa statement of krinn was a sarcastic note right? ;)
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himpierre
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm asking my self how come someone buys an ati card for linux? Everyone should know ati sucks with linux. Was it a present from an enemy of you? :-)

ciao
thomas
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forceflow2
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno why everyone is so mad at ATi about the driver issue. I mean, I can run the best text-based games known to man on my ATi Radeon 9000 Mobility. And the number of times in a week that they cause X to freeze, I can count on both hands...maybe throw in a foot or two... And...the cool fonts are always displayed correctly...well, not in X at least... :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
But your "compatibility layer" usage is to do what ? ... make windows programs run under linux... -> emulator.


... Do you know what WINE stands for?

Wine Is Not an Emulator.

And WineX/Cedega is just a DirectX/Direct3D implementation for Linux. Direct3D isn't native to Linux, so WineX/Cedega somewhat solves that.
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John5788
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC all cedega/winex does is translate directx calls into opengl
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Merlin-TC
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that everyone keeps whining that wine, winex or cadega is not an emulator but that does not change the fact that it is painfully slow compared to windows.

So whatever it is, it is just slow.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin-TC wrote:
I know that everyone keeps whining that wine, winex or cadega is not an emulator but that does not change the fact that it is painfully slow compared to windows.

So whatever it is, it is just slow.


It's the best they can do. Bug Microsoft to make a good port of Direct3D to Linux (yeah right) or bug the game companies to use OpenGL. You can already see game companies switiching to or using OpenGL. (A la UT2003/2004, DOOM III, StepMania, etc.)
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krinn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

answer for everyone 8)

sindre: maybe (i can get lost in english sometimes, but i think you were arguying about doom3 engine as a base new 3D engine that will show newers cards power, and i was trying to explain you that the X800 DO NOT HAVE ANY 3D under linux because of the drivers). I don't care who from Nvidia or ATI can make Doom3 works better, even if it was ATI that beat nvidia 10x, in current state, Doom3 will not work at all with the X800.


riven: ...

Merlin-TC: thank you! i can't answer him better...

Himpierre: i was one (and i'm not the only one, i have saw a post of someone that have idea of buying one in that forum, i'm happy someone show him this post and he have changed his mind now)

forceflow2: :lol:

Hydrosan: we can argue days but it's an emulator and i'm not alone to think that: now, another proof (if you don't trust me, maybe you will trust some real programmers, no?).

Code:

emerge -s winex cedega
Searching...
[ Results for search key : winex ]
[ Applications found : 3 ]
 
*  app-emulation/winex
      Latest version available: 3000
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of downloaded files: 0 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.transgaming.com/
      Description: Winex - fake ebuild!
      License:     Aladdin
 
*  app-emulation/winex-cvs
      Latest version available: 3000
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of downloaded files: 0 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.transgaming.com/
      Description: Winex - fake ebuild!
      License:     Aladdin
 
*  app-emulation/winex-transgaming
      Latest version available: 3.3.2
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of downloaded files: 7,037 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.transgaming.com/
      Description: WineX is a distribution of Wine with enhanced DirectX for gaming
      License:     Aladdin
 
 
Searching...
[ Results for search key : cedega ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
 
*  app-emulation/cedega
      Latest version available: 4.0
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of downloaded files: 7,205 kB
      Homepage:    http://www.transgaming.com/
      Description: Cedega replaces WineX, a distribution of Wine with enhanced DirectX for gaming
      License:     Aladdin


Got the picture ?
Code:
app-emulation
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