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Stormy Eyes
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Joined: 09 Apr 2003
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Location: Watching God spit-shine my boots.
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 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| People are still discussing this? Holy shit. |
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viperlin
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Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 1319
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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hmmmmm
NSFW flag
everyone happy? no americans feeling opressed? good, now lets move on. |
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dalek
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Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have a better idea. If you find something offensive, delete it. Leave the rest of us alone.
I guess I'm the same way with guns. I like to defend myself and not depend on someone else to do it for me. The only person that cares about you, short of spouse and kids, is yourself. What is OK to one is not OK to the next. How is a person to know what is "OK" and what is not anyway? This is what causes some people so much trouble. They have to go overboard to make SURE they don't "offend" anyone.
Get a life people. Go to the website and look at screenshots BEFORE you install so you know what you are getting. If it is OK, install it, if not, don't. Real simple.
Flag would be fine with me. I won't use it anyway.
Later
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OdinsDream
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Commercial vs. Hobby O.S. |
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| wpr wrote: |
...
The Linux community needs to concentrate on changing the landscape of SOFTWARE, not international social mores.
... |
Hear Ye!!!!
wpr has SPOKEN.
...and Linux,... Linux will listen.
....If this isn't the last time I see someone claim to "know what's best" for Linux, or the Linux community, or to know what linux "really needs to be doing"......so help me god.......
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OdinsDream
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| sapphirecat wrote: | | pindar wrote: | | ... mindless acceptance of commercial values is certainly not the road free software should be taking. |
It is not free software's job to change cultural and legal climate. Rushing headlong into a rain of Righteous Fury(TM), jeopardizing the existence of our distribution, and negatively affecting public opinion of the movement as a whole is not the wisest path. |
Where do I sign up to be on the Free Software Movt. Board of Directors like you? I want to make decisions on Where This Movement Is Taking You(tm) too!!
Seriously, to proffer just one meek voice in disagreement, I do think free software can help change the cultural and legal climate. I'm not going to actually say that it "should be" or "shouldn't be," but in my personal, extremely humble opinion, I do believe that it can. So, this is one (of many, many thousands) of opinions that disagree with your notion of what free software can do.
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aethyr
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Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 1085
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Throwing in my two cents to this downtrodden topic...
Pretty much all pornography is copyrighted (believe it or not), therefore unless Gentoo licenses the material, it should not be included.
Having copyrighted artwork in any ebuild shouldn't be allowed, end of story. |
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jmz2
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Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 421
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| aethyr wrote: | Throwing in my two cents to this downtrodden topic...
Pretty much all pornography is copyrighted (believe it or not), therefore unless Gentoo licenses the material, it should not be included.
Having copyrighted artwork in any ebuild shouldn't be allowed, end of story. |
Pretty much every artwork is copyrighted. I would not remove copyrighted artwork from ebuilds, because that would be too much work for the package maintainers. Instead we should trust the software/theme authors to check wether or not the copyright holder grants permission to use the artwork.
However, ebuilds should not be allowed to have pornographic material install automatically without the user exclipitly asking for it. |
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sapphirecat
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Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| OdinsDream wrote: | | Where do I sign up to be on the Free Software Movt. Board of Directors like you? I want to make decisions on Where This Movement Is Taking You(tm) too!! |
Is this section OTW now, too? 
All I'm advocating is choosing our battles carefully. Setting aside my lack of faith in PornoLinux being welcomed by Iran or the USA's Deep South, is it something worth fighting for? What do we gain from not granting the choice to refuse installation of the risqué (and invariably straight male oriented) things?
Maybe we can compromise. If you want your porn included unconditionally, you also have to support having the goatse guy in it. Sound good?
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| sapphirecat wrote: | | OdinsDream wrote: | | Where do I sign up to be on the Free Software Movt. Board of Directors like you? I want to make decisions on Where This Movement Is Taking You(tm) too!! |
Is this section OTW now, too?
All I'm advocating is choosing our battles carefully. Setting aside my lack of faith in PornoLinux being welcomed by Iran or the USA's Deep South, is it something worth fighting for? What do we gain from not granting the choice to refuse installation of the risqué (and invariably straight male oriented) things?
Maybe we can compromise. If you want your porn included unconditionally, you also have to support having the goatse guy in it. Sound good? |
Honestly, yes. It does sound much better than allowing someone else to dictate whether or not it is in fact offensive. I don't run the danger of having goatse.cx popping up on my screen at work, even if it were part of a theme, because I take responsibility for all the things I download (even pre-packaged stuff). If I install the themes, I accept responsibility that themes are made of images, and images can describe potentially offensive things. If I installed Sun JDK, and goatse.cx popped up, I'd be reasonably concerned, but themes are based on graphic content, they are designed to illicit a response like "wow." As a rule, if something can make you say "wow," chances are, it probably also offended someone.
I am not going to advocate having anyone, me included, mark things as "offensive" or "not offensive."
What about themes that show a woman's face? Surely some cultures find this offensive, maybe we shouldn't include them, to protect these cultures. You see, this gets us nowhere.
It's a lovely bit of trickery to say: "What do we gain from not granting the choice to refuse installation..." As if WM themes force themselves to be installed, and users are simply at their mercy, crying out "No!! Why have you forsaken me windowmanager...why!!!"
Let's stay focused... this thread is about the results of emerging optional themes for the WM. They are not prepackaged with Gentoo, and are not essential to using the WM in question. Nothing requires you to install these themes, and the only reason they get installed is if you make them install by executing the command yourself.
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erwan
Apprentice
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| dalek wrote: | I have a better idea. If you find something offensive, delete it. Leave the rest of us alone.
I guess I'm the same way with guns. I like to defend myself and not depend on someone else to do it for me. The only person that cares about you, short of spouse and kids, is yourself. What is OK to one is not OK to the next. How is a person to know what is "OK" and what is not anyway? This is what causes some people so much trouble. They have to go overboard to make SURE they don't "offend" anyone.
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Well, gun and "offensive content" is a bit different. I agree with you on offensive content ; if I don't want themes with nudity, I just don't keep it. That won't harm me if other people have it.
Regarding guns, if you have one you can use it to defend yourself but also to agress me (no, I don't trust you  ). I am happy to live in a country were you can't find bullets in the convienience store, and I am sad for those to have to live in such a country.
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dalek
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Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well my point was everything is so subjective. It varies from one to the other. I don't mind gays, as long as they are not 'hitting' on me. I think the ladies a pretty to be sure. Think some are a work of art even and pleasing to look at clothed or not. However, some other people see a little thigh and freak out, like in the middle east where women have to be covered from head to toe.
So it really depends on the person. Nobody can defend or make that decision better than you can. Businesses and government agencies have to go overboard to protect everybody because they don't usually know what is 'offensive' and what is not to each person. Just like some people, what one sees as a threat, may not be to another.
I always look at screenshots before I download something, not that I care much anyway, but just in case it is a bunch of pics of guys. Not my thing. 
Wish I could type what I think better. 
Later
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mrde50garfield
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Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Stormy Eyes wrote: | | People are still discussing this? Holy shit. |
I agree. Look, this is easy. We're not asking that any packages be 'censored.' We're just asking if it can be considered a courtesy to mark them as "mature" or something like that for us who emerge at our workplaces.
Give us an informed choice. |
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sapphirecat
Guru
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| OdinsDream wrote: | | Honestly, yes. It does sound much better than allowing someone else to dictate whether or not it is in fact offensive. |
I have certain expectations for what a general distribution packages, optional or not. While a USE flag is IMO the correct solution, even an einfo in pkg_postinst about the fact that the package does contain some adult-oriented material would have been nice.
Under the proposed system, you would set USE="offensive" and quit caring. I don't see how this is terrible oppression.
| Quote: | | What about themes that show a woman's face? Surely some cultures find this offensive, maybe we shouldn't include them, to protect these cultures. |
"Maybe" being the operative word. We can't escape the fact that we need to draw a line somewhere about what we want to include wrt the diversity of cultural attitudes. Having a single use flag lets us draw two lines, but at the cost of maintenance overhead. More levels could be added, with correspondingly more overhead. In the end, the people in charge of the project will decide how much overhead they can afford and how much non-offense it can buy, and make their decision.
| Quote: | | Let's stay focused... this thread is about the results of emerging optional themes for the WM. They are not prepackaged with Gentoo, and are not essential to using the WM in question. Nothing requires you to install these themes, and the only reason they get installed is if you make them install by executing the command yourself. |
Everything in Portage, by virtue of being provided by Gentoo, is at some level prepackaged. The developers have control of CVS, and thus control of what goes in or out. If it doesn't advertise itself as porn, it shouldn't contain any.
=====
At any rate, given that some art has been removed from the package at the request of the MPAA, but the theme in question lives on, I guess it's a dead topic.
/me permanently exits thread
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OdinsDream
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| sapphirecat wrote: |
Everything in Portage, by virtue of being provided by Gentoo, is at some level prepackaged. The developers have control of CVS, and thus control of what goes in or out. If it doesn't advertise itself as porn, it shouldn't contain any.
=====
At any rate, given that some art has been removed from the package at the request of the MPAA, but the theme in question lives on, I guess it's a dead topic.
/me permanently exits thread |
I just have to wonder what you meant by "by virtue of being provided by Gentoo, is at some level prepackaged."
Surely you understand that the actual porn is extremely different from the URL to an archive that contains the porn. If you didn't, I'll express the difference now. The difference would be...if you live in a place with laws against porn, you would not be violating the laws by installing Gentoo per the install guide, whereas if you emerged themes containing porn, you would then be in violation of the law. The difference is the action you proactively take. Like if I provided a link in this thread (as others have) to the images in question, this thread is not illegal. The content at the end of the links may be.
What does the MPAA have to do with any of this?
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stompyz
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Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Uh, hahaha, if someone ACTUALLY got fired over this, then perhaps it's for the better because chances are your job sucks and you're unhappy there anyway.
Just a thought. |
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malloc
l33t
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 762
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I've just discovered this gem of a thread, and I even bothered to read it all and let me tell you something...
There are people around here with WAAAAAAAAAAY too much free time in their hands...Go find something useful to do, like solving the Samba bug and stop inventing problems where there are none.
Jeez...
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paridel
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Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I still can't believe that people are still here crying censorship over rating an image. First, censorship would be preventing you from having access to it, which the -offensive tag in no way does. Calling it censorship is a straw man argument.
I won't go out and try to stop you from expressing your views. But not having you do it on my time, my hardware, with my resources is not censorship. I'm not taking away your right to say something by refusing to listen. That might be a harsh reality, but it's the truth.
Think about, this type of thing is done in gentoo all over the place. If I write a package and it's crap it doesn't make it into portage. If I write a package and call it a window manager and it's really a terminal pager it doesn't get included. That isn't censorship, I can still put it up on the web on my own, but it just means that gentoo isn't going to distribute it for me. This of course is a good thing.
Or maybe this is a little simpler explanation. Genoo gives you the option of installing whatever window manager you want. If I want KDE, Gnome, Openbox, whatever that's ok. I expect that the descriptions are reasonable in portage, figure out what I want, and emerge it. Giving me the option of only using Openbox while NOT installing KDE when I don't want it isn't censorship. Just as giving me the option of installing pictures of flowers and while NOT pictures of someone getting deflowered isn't censorship. Think about it, they are analogous. It is giving me a choice. Censorship is about taking away choice. Forcing me to install KDE would be much more akin to Censorship.
Portage isn't the same thing as the internet. I have no expectation of anything when I download something from the internet. It could be some random weird stuff, and typically is. But I have for lack of a better word a form of social contract with the gentoo project. I understand that although they are not responsable for breaking my machine the code that I download from them should at least be well identified and attempt to fufill the purpose that it is described as being designed for.
If you really want pictures of naked people on your desktop then this is good for you. It won't prevent you from having them there, no, if they are tagged it will make them easier to find.
-paridel |
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dalek
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Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Stormy Eyes wrote: | | People are still discussing this? Holy shit. |
Looks like.
Later
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WhyteWolf
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Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 168
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: Grrr |
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think this gets cleared up once and for all ...
first ... I submitted a WM themes packages with this listing 11879
to which asleep responded with his own personaly maintained ebuild ...
asleeps ebuild was the one that got sent to the portage tree mine never was unforchantly as can be seen in this bug report asleeps ebuild contained offensive matereal even then
and yes I was the first one to sugest that there be an adult use tag on some of the themes
unforchantly around this time I also started moving around and couldn't keep up with ebuild develpment so lost track of everything I saw the windowmaker-themes ebuilds mentioned a few times and was thankful it wasn't my ebuild that gone in the portage tree ...
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OdinsDream
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| paridel wrote: |
If you really want pictures of naked people on your desktop then this is good for you. It won't prevent you from having them there, no, if they are tagged it will make them easier to find.
-paridel |
I agree with most of your post, but I think this particular point could be more fully developed. Adding metatags to those ebuilds that contain photographic content where the maintainer could put keywords would probably be well received. The trouble comes when you're depending on the keywords to tell you what's in the package.
If I collected a bunch of themes/backgrounds and submitted them as an ebuild, included the keywords "blue ocean naked flower rain" and forgot to include the keywords "unmasked women" because I didn't think it was weird to show women's faces, how am I at all to blame for not including that keyword if your culture/opinion deems it worthwhile information?
These are just a best-guess at what might be descriptive or helpful to someone else. Assuming you don't propose forcing people to be helpful, I agree that it would be a nice thing for ebuilds to contain.
In this way, you could have emerge -av <themename> print out the associated keywords that were included by the package maintainer. If one of them irks you, you could forgo the installation.
I do not, however, agree that anyone has a right to be angry that a theme may not fit the keywords, or that, in your opinion, more keywords might have been helpful. I base this on the fact that descriptions and keywords are subjective, and what one person thinks is descriptive may not be at all descriptive for someone else.
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Deranger
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1215
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Does it bother anyone else that the windowmaker-themes package contains sexually explicit material?
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No, it does not bother me unless it's not Goatse  |
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gentoo_lan
l33t
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does it bother anyone else that the windowmaker-themes package contains sexually explicit material? |
You have the right to download the themes or not. I personally don't think they should be removed to be politically correct. Give people choices. |
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GoatBoy
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:10 am Post subject: |
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You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit.
I say the -OFFENSIVE flag should be expanded to cover packages with source code that has offensive language in it. You know, to protect the children. |
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Deranger
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Posts: 1215
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| GoatBoy wrote: | You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit.
I say the -OFFENSIVE flag should be expanded to cover packages with source code that has offensive language in it. You know, to protect the children. |
Protect the children? How many kids you have seen using GNU/Linux? Or even Windows properly? |
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psyqil
Advocate
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Stormy Eyes wrote: | | People are still discussing this? Holy shit. |
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