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Stormy Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pwnz3r wrote:
As I said, since not all females would want pics of females, that should be taken out. Of course, a I think a male and female USE variable would be nice too. Of course, if they made the female include a bunch of stereotypical crap I think the female Gentoo users would kill people so I'd say just stick with more males in the pictures.


How about a boobies flag and a weeners flag?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not start a separate project for Gentoo users that want porn ebuilds, maybe Prontoo Linux? For people that need to have their "Open Source" genitalia on the screen quickly with the least amount of effort.
Quote:
The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do their work pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit.

is now
Quote:
The goal of Prontoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to read fark.com and make comments on LiveJournals as pleasantly as possible, as they see fit, while also breaking copyright laws by using someone else's photographs without giving proper credits.

Anyone else seeing it? 8)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Lesbian GNU/Linux? (based off of Debian, and an actual distro)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:18 pm    Post subject: Yea... um... Reply with quote

This was my ebuild. The most 'adult' oriented themes are mine.

When I made the first version of the build I grabbed a subset of themes w/o checking them. Since then I've thought that I should make windowmaker-themes and windowmaker-themes-adult ebuilds.

On the lighter side, nobody is making you use the more mature-subject themes at work :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Controversial images in WM. Reply with quote

csawtell wrote:
What is the situation as of now?

If I
emerge sync && emerge windowmaker
today will any controversial images be installed?

(edit) Misread the question. If you emerge windowmaker, no. It's windowmaker-themes that is problematic.

The last update (19 June) by pYrania added a blank IUSE. 3white is still part of SRC_URI and "offensive" is nowhere to be found. (windowmaker-themes-0.1.ebuild v 1.7)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I realize this post has been pretty much played out, but I'm definitely +1 for marking explicit material as explicit material. Not that it is something that can be implemented overnight, but it is something to think about...for next time perhaps.

I don't really see what the argument is about. I mean, some of us have morals; and for those who don't, well that just makes it easier to find, now doesn't it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supreme_geek_overlord wrote:
I don't really see what the argument is about. I mean, some of us have morals; and for those who don't, well that just makes it easier to find, now doesn't it?


Hey, man, you don't have to like porn, but don't go around claiming that the people who do "lack morals". You haven't earned the right.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Hey, man, you don't have to like porn, but don't go around claiming that the people who do "lack morals".


Perhaps I should have worded it a little differently. I guess you probably know what I mean...

Quote:
You haven't earned the right.


Yeah, I can agree on that point. Let's not start the "Christians on this board" flame war again, but I believe there is One who has...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Commercial vs. Hobby O.S. Reply with quote

This thread clearly demonstrates one of the tensions that exists in the Linux world - that of Commerce vs. Hobby. This entire issue would be a NO-BRAINER in any commercial software development environment – the discussion wouldn’t even be being HAD in the commercial world. It is somewhat telling that we are already on the sixth page of this discussion. There should be NO debate -- anything that's offensive or illegal to ANY significant recognized global community should NEVER be included in a default build of the Gentoo distro (probably it should not even be available in any standard distro – if someone wants it, they can hunt it down). Attitudes to the contrary only serve to interfere with the long-term success of Linux.

In the commercial world, what one "thinks" should be true is completely irrelevant -- business (i.e., financial) interests are the primary (or only) motivation. Indeed, in the United States, any executive who chose to expose their corporation to liability by promoting personal beliefs over corporate financial interests has likely breached their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. (Perhaps an argument can be made that the corporation would reap “goodwill” benefits by standing up for the “right” of an employee to display something potentially offensive on their screen saver even though their co-workers were filing harassment suits – but I’m having a hard time imagining this is the case in most businesses).

Although I suspect the higher-level decision makers in the Linux community DO understand this, I fear the distributed nature of development means that some packages get included in various distros without being vetted by those with these professional attitudes.

I personally have no moral or ethical problem with (almost) anything between consenting adults. I don't place a value judgment on someone whose HOME screen saver has something that a right wing religious zealot in the United States would find offensive. However, as a manager, I have had little choice but to require that individuals delete potentially offensive screensavers (which includes religious messages and pictures of scantily clad individuals -- even if they are related to the worker).

The Linux community needs to concentrate on changing the landscape of SOFTWARE, not international social mores. Remember that Linux probably runs on the gamut of servers - including those serving up:
    Hard-core porn,
    Messages of the religious right zealots in the United States,
    Gleeful depictions of a South Korean being brutally beheaded
As a point of reference, recall the problems that Microsoft has had when inadvertently including particular symbols in fonts! For example, Germany has strict rules about Nazi images (and some other communities find them offensive). Microsoft inadvertently released a font that contained a swastika. In spite of the fact this symbol has numerous uses independent of its offensive Nazi association, Microsoft responded quickly with a tool to remove it and fix the problem. I doubt that they argued about “if it was offensive” – they run a business and reacted appropriately.

Do note that in the United States, a picture on your desk of your spouse in a swimsuit on a family vacation is potentially considered offensive and your manager may require that it be removed. Yep, it’s ridiculous – but Linux has enough challenges ahead of it without fighting that unrelated battle. The social discussions belong on alt.<something>, not in Gentoo forums if Linux is to prevail.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I need someone to elaborate a bit. I use the offensive flag if I am over 18 and want porn. Right?

<opinion>

I think google/image is the best place to get pics. Click 'advanced search' and search for large images , keyword porn will get you to a start. Certain parts of the anatomy will get results too.

Me, I'm open minded. KDE slideshow for my desktop and a few thousand images to keep it from getting boreing.

I think women are beautiful myself but there is also a time and place for everything.

</opinion>

First part of post is what I am really wanting to know. 37 by the way.

Later

:D :D :D :D
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: pr0n + kids == possibility of prison time Reply with quote

For the record, I am glad there seems to be some consensus that emerging nudity without asking is bad.

For those idiots who said kids don't use gentoo:

I have four children. The oldest two, aged six and eight, both boys, are old enough to use gentoo (mostly for games, GIMP, etc)and I am beginning to teach them the basics of *nix commands.

offensive must be OFF BY DEFAULT so no one is surprised. I believe that this world would be better off without the easily accessible pr0n of the internet. It is a tremendous waste of public bandwidth.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I said I wouldn't get to involved in this topic, but w/e: I'm a kid and I use Gentoo, too...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:36 am    Post subject: From the gentoo social contract Reply with quote

This is straight from the social contract of gentoo:

Every user has work they need to do. The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do their work pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user.

There can be many ways that this can be infered, but here is what I think should happen.

All packages should conform to use the offensive use flag. You either want to see the suggestive stuff or you don't, that simple. I think that with the offensive off by default(as in not auto bad stuff), and say on your home computer, if you really want the stuff, just add offensive to you make.conf and you are set, gentoo does not force you to not easily get it, and people who do not want to look at it are not subjected to it in anyway.

This will most reflect the will of the user.

Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalek wrote:
I think women are beautiful myself but there is also a time and place for everything.


I agree. Not only is it unprofessional to have softporn on my workstation, but it would be tremendously embarrassing for me to walk around the office with an erection, as I work around women. Too many bad memories of high school, and whatnot.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say that we make the male, female, and offensive flags start working. Either that, or we get some people that know how to use the rm command or a graphical filer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
dalek wrote:
I think women are beautiful myself but there is also a time and place for everything.


I agree. Not only is it unprofessional to have softporn on my workstation, but it would be tremendously embarrassing for me to walk around the office with an erection, as I work around women. Too many bad memories of high school, and whatnot.


<picks self up off the floor>

You mean we agree on something? 8O 8O

Since nobody read my other post. I add offensive to my make.conf, right?

I still like google/images though. You can get great pics that way. Free too. :P

Later

:D :D :D :D
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I really think that an "offensive" or whatever flag would be useful. I looked at the pics, and I can easily see why people might not want them installed on their computer without being aware of it. But I also think that some of the arguments proffered here are a bit simple-minded. Take wpr, for example:
Quote:
This entire issue would be a NO-BRAINER in any commercial software development environment – the discussion wouldn’t even be being HAD in the commercial world. It is somewhat telling that we are already on the sixth page of this discussion. There should be NO debate -- anything that's offensive or illegal to ANY significant recognized global community should NEVER be included in a default build of the Gentoo distro.

Let me give you two examples: a couple of years ago, when Disney Corp. started their European theme park near Paris, they wouldn't allow their workers to have beards since it might scare kids. There was a huge public uproar, but Disney would argue as you did: this is a commercial enterprise, and there shouldn't be a discussion, this might make us less profitable. Example # 2: in my country (Germany), about 70 years back, every professional, commercial person with a bit of common sense would say "This is a NO-BRAINER -- of course we shouldn't be hiring Jewish people, or sell to Jewish people, or think about them." Germany by then was definitely a "significant recognized global community" (in fact, one could argue it was the most advanced nation in terms of sciences and technology), so in the hypothetical situation that Gentoo existed back in 1934, we should have taken care of cutting out anything that might offend cool-headed businessmen in Germany, such as anything referring to Jewish culture, Jewish people etc. You get the picture. Your argument that this discussion would not have occurred in the commercial world works both ways, and mindless acceptance of commercial values is certainly not the road free software should be taking.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pindar wrote:
... mindless acceptance of commercial values is certainly not the road free software should be taking.

It is not free software's job to change cultural and legal climate. Rushing headlong into a rain of Righteous Fury(TM), jeopardizing the existence of our distribution, and negatively affecting public opinion of the movement as a whole is not the wisest path.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: From the gentoo social contract Reply with quote

nitroburn wrote:
You either want to see the suggestive stuff or you don't, that simple.

Or, alternatively, one might not give two hoots one way or the other.

I think the decision of whether or not to implement such a flag should be left to the ebuild's maintainer(s). A dummy "warn-offensive" (lol - I'm sure others could come up with a better name) ebuild could be created, its sole purpose being to conflict with any ebuilds that contain "offensive" material without making use of the "offensive" flag. This would make self-censure possible for those who wish it, whilst still giving individual ebuild maintainers the freedom to not participate.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic is, um, sad.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: From the gentoo social contract Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
I think the decision of whether or not to implement such a flag should be left to the ebuild's maintainer(s). A dummy "warn-offensive" (lol - I'm sure others could come up with a better name) ebuild could be created, its sole purpose being to conflict with any ebuilds that contain "offensive" material without making use of the "offensive" flag. This would make self-censure possible for those who wish it, whilst still giving individual ebuild maintainers the freedom to not participate.


That's a creative idea. I'd rather the offensive flag just be used, but an interesting alternative non-theless and perhaps the most creative thing I've read in this entire discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:26 pm    Post subject: money-talk Reply with quote

Hey, there is a lot of "christian" , "morale" etc. groups telling people how to live their short and miserable lives to get into heaven. Why no tell them to fund some reasonble rating system ?

I don't like idea to invest (work or money, doesn't matter) to keep on rules somebody else things are good. If they want it, ok, but then they should give money for it too. And developers can give either more money or more time for Real Problems (R).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
mat74 wrote:
Oh c'mon guys. It's not like there is any wallpaper with some real action on it. Do you really consider nudity as porn?? Don't be so prudish. No one forces you to actually use them.
:wink:
In a US work environment, it could cost the person their job and a company a lot of money from a sexual harassment lawsuit. So I say, Oh c'mon, get your own porn/nudity/art that may be inappropriate for some.


I agree completely. Where I wouldn't have a problem having the themes on my home computer, if something like that popped up on my work computer, I would be in some serious shiznat (<-- does that make me sound 'jiggy' :lol: ). Seriously though, things like this really make it difficult to support the push of linux being a viable solution in the workplace.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: From the gentoo social contract Reply with quote

flickerfly wrote:

That's a creative idea. I'd rather the offensive flag just be used, but an interesting alternative non-theless and perhaps the most creative thing I've read in this entire discussion.


Sorry for double posting, but I have a little problem with the offensive flag. The thing I have a problem with, is that with sooo many cultures out there, everyone is bound to find just about anything as 'offensive'. I think we have a specific problem and should deal with it in a specific manner. Such as creating a 'nudity', 'adult', or 'nws' (not work-safe) flag. I'm partial to the nws flag myself.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YetiChick wrote:
"Please be my babysitter because I'm afraid of being offended."

Give me a break. A 'right' to make an informed choice? To not be offended? To have somebody else protect your children? Please.

I have no objection to someone voluntarily marking something 'potentially offensive' before they make it available to the public, but why bother? Somebody is bound to be offended by the mere presence of potentially offensive material. Mark it, you offend someone, don't mark it, offend someone else. And then we can sit in here and debate who was being reasonable. "Well, everyone accepts that nudity offends some people, but being bothered by a picture of a cucumber? I dunno."

Sorry, but if you can't examine something for offensive content yourself (for fear of being offended) you shouldn't be downloading, period. It's not anybody else's responsibility to determine what your limits are. I'm 'offended' by easily offended people, but I'm not... oooh... Wait. No, that's a good idea.

Before anyone is allowed in a discussion forum, they should have to mark their profile with a list of things which offend them. Then, before you post to a thread, you can make sure you don't say anything which will bother somebody. Or maybe... Maybe a profile would contain a list of potentially offensive things you might say in a post. That way, nobody would have to read a thread if they saw you were a part of it. Oooh. Good idea. Or not.

I can't express how much how this 'please protect me thing' offends me. It's spreading like a cancer in America, too. And I can't do a thing about it... Should I want to?

Tracy


Thank you so much for elucidating the main point here... personal responsibility. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

It is a misunderstanding that the "offensive" USE flag was created as a mandatory method through which those crafting ebuilds can sanitize others' computing experiences.

The flag was created as a "suggestion" field, whereby if I created a package that I thought might offend someone, I could choose to respect the "offensive" flag. Again, this being completely optional.

What makes it optional? The fact that Gentoo has not formed an "offensive-checker" committee, whose sole purpose it is to review portage ebuilds for potential offensiveness. This would be a complete waste of time.

In my personal, very humble opinion, the offensive flag should be done away with. For those of you not willing to even examine content for its appropriateness, I suggest you hire someone else to do it for you. Asking other people working on a freely-available open-source project to subsidize this examination cost for you is unacceptable.

For those of you crying about NSFW themes, the easy, obvious solution is to only install themes you've personally checked out ahead of time, or, hey, not install themes at work. Your workstation still functions without the themes, so you're not losing out here. The comparision of "what if Windows came default with naked chicks?!" fails miserably: My gentoo install didn't come default with any porn, did yours?

You have no right to be constantly protected from offensiveness, contrary to popular belief in the U.S. here.

So, assuming the offensive flag remains, I have the following suggestion:
There does need to be some better handling of this, particularly because it disturbs me that the "offensive" flag could be enabled or disabled by any one person (even if that person is the package creator).

I would recommend the following:
Allow a range of offensiveness, and have user-feedback to set this value. Start it off at 0 offensiveness for all packages, and allow package submitters to set it as high as the median value.

Then, allow portage to operate only below a certain threshold. Allow users to rate packages, thereby increasing or decreasing their offensiveness rating. In this manner, only people who care to rate packages will do so, and only those of us who care to "protect" ourselves can engage in this inherently flawed method of doing so.

What this solves: It prevents single entities from determining the offensiveness of any package, and solves the matter of "judging" offensiveness by distributing the load over a much larger sampling.
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