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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltago wrote:
But why is it such a common feature in this kind of anti-gentoo-trolling that patches are not upstreamed to the appropriate projects by gentoo devs? Is there a grain of truth in this? Or is it just prejudice?

Hrm, no, that one's definitely not true. Dunno where that idea comes from. Patches are always sent upstream. Quite often upstream ignore them, don't provide valid contact information or don't read their own mailing lists, but the patches are always sent...

On the other hand, yes, we have a small group of vocal idiot users who go around using -ffast-math, -msse, reiser4, love-sources and hard-masked gcc versions on non-test systems giving the rest of the project a bad name. It's to be expected...
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stonent
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
users who go around using -ffast-math, -msse, reiser4, love-sources and hard-masked gcc versions on non-test systems giving the rest of the project a bad name. It's to be expected...


Well I say, let them do what they want. Better to let the bugs be found now than after something goes unmasked. GCC 3.4 for example. Most stuff now compiles cleanly under it probably as a result of the GCC 3.4 thread in this forum. People found the crashes and sent the patches to bugs.g.o.

I've been running GCC 3.4 since the day it came out (in a separate slot than GCC 3.3) Whenever something fails during the compile I go through several steps to confirm it was GCC 3.4 and if I determine the cause, I check Bugs.g.o and if it isn't there, file a bug report.

I've shot myself in the foot several times as a result of getting too experimental with Gentoo, but I have the mental capacity to trace things down and eventually figure them out.

If I were running a business with Gentoo servers of course I'd never enter ~arch territory or do anything wierd with my flags. (I'd probably even lock my cflags on pentiumpro -O2 or at the most, pentium II)

So who is using wierd stuff on non-test systems?

As for servers, well my firewall/fileserver at home has been running a redhat 7.2 varient for over a year and I'm only now considering upgrading to something newer because of a recent power failure has caused NFS to refuse all clients (which luckily is just my laptop and I can SCP anything I need anyway)
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stonent wrote:
Well I say, let them do what they want. Better to let the bugs be found now than after something goes unmasked. GCC 3.4 for example. Most stuff now compiles cleanly under it probably as a result of the GCC 3.4 thread in this forum. People found the crashes and sent the patches to bugs.g.o.

Sure. Use gcc 3.4 in a chroot system (or a seperate test box if you're rich and brave). Nothing wrong with that, it's the correct way to test things. It's the people who run it on live systems and go around suggesting that everyone else does the same ("because it's really stable") that cause the problems.

(incidentally, gcc34 is still massively buggy on some non-x86 archs... can't compile glibc on sparc for example)
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thechris
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've got a feeling many of the quotes are taken out of context.

"With othert distro's when you have problems they are problems with Redhat or with SuSE or with Lindows. But if you have problems with Gentoo you have problems with Linux."
-eh, if the context was system set-up, then i'd agree a bit more. from mandrake i learned that i didn't know anthing about how mandrake had set things up. i couldn't get the rpm managemnt thing to install packages not on the cd, and frankly i blamed mandrake instead of linux -- after all it was more of a distro specific "what did this thing do?" issue.
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Bague
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On the other hand, yes, we have a small group of vocal idiot users who go around using -ffast-math, -msse, reiser4, love-sources and hard-masked gcc versions on non-test systems giving the rest of the project a bad name. It's to be expected...


You hate anything experimental or bleeding edge don't you? SOMEONE has to use it for it to be tested, don't complain about them. I used love-sources for months without problems, and the only reason I am not using it now is for my radeon support.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bague wrote:
You hate anything experimental or bleeding edge don't you? SOMEONE has to use it for it to be tested, don't complain about them. I used love-sources for months without problems, and the only reason I am not using it now is for my radeon support.

Not at all. Read what I said. on non-test systems.
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Bague
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, sorry, missed that. But still, love-sources worked excellently on the non test system I had.
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Lews_Therin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
On the other hand, yes, we have a small group of vocal idiot users who go around using -ffast-math, -msse, reiser4, love-sources and hard-masked gcc versions on non-test systems giving the rest of the project a bad name. It's to be expected...


I do not understand...how is -msse a flag that is considered "experimental"? Haven't SSE instructions been around for a while?
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lews_Therin wrote:
I do not understand...how is -msse a flag that is considered "experimental"? Haven't SSE instructions been around for a while?

Ah, no, -msse is just silly. Set -march instead, let the compiler decide what to do.
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stonent
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
[It's the people who run it on live systems and go around suggesting that everyone else does the same ("because it's really stable") that cause the problems.


There was one thread that was started for the GCC 3.5 testing. And one guy just comes in and starts asking all these questions about should he try the 3.5pre homemade ebuilds and just tons of questions and then mentioned he was using 3.3.2. I asked him why he was even considering 3.5 without even venturing into 3.4.
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Tun
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is ricer a racist word ?

It's not in our vocabulary over here (England). So it got me thinking about its etymology. Did the term come about because most of the souped up cars are Asian in origin, hence made by 'rice eaters' therefore ricers ?
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Given M. Sur
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tun wrote:
Is ricer a racist word ?

It's not in our vocabulary over here (England). So it got me thinking about its etymology. Did the term come about because most of the souped up cars are Asian in origin, hence made by 'rice eaters' therefore ricers ?
Yes
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Syntaxis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tun wrote:
Is ricer a racist word ?

Not necessarily. It's often used in a very generic way. From http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ricer:

Quote:
Someone regardless of ethnicity with any vehicle regardless of type that put money into the cosmetics of their vehicle instead of performance and treats it as though it will beat anything it up against.


Given the above, and that the funroll-loops author clearly isn't using the word in the context of attacking asian people, I think we can all put our torches and pitchforks down now.
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Anderas
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
nrl wrote:
Oh come on, 90% of them are ill-informed at best.

I disagree; some examples:

* USE flags do make a huge difference in the capabilities of your installation, e.g. database support suited to you situation, LDAP for client apps, etc.

* Binary packaging does encourage sloppy coding/design, contrast with the stochastic API unit testing which occurs naturally with all the building with different configurations

* Gentoo does save time because it is easier to administer -- emerging does not require user intervention and its CPU usage can be tuned


This is now quoted on the page, and I must say, it is hilarious :o)
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anderas wrote:
Hypnos wrote:
nrl wrote:
Oh come on, 90% of them are ill-informed at best.

I disagree; some examples:

* USE flags do make a huge difference in the capabilities of your installation, e.g. database support suited to you situation, LDAP for client apps, etc.

* Binary packaging does encourage sloppy coding/design, contrast with the stochastic API unit testing which occurs naturally with all the building with different configurations

* Gentoo does save time because it is easier to administer -- emerging does not require user intervention and its CPU usage can be tuned


This is now quoted on the page, and I must say, it is hilarious :o)

:P I think I'm right -- that's one reason Python is just as acceptable as C(++) when you can't control the deployment environment.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the sake of completeness here is a link to a short thread discussing this site on the debian-user mailing list (the first reply is me BTW :)):
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/06/msg00410.html

Sorry for bumping this old thread :roll:.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'know, one could set up a funny site in similar style insulting Debian. Comb through the debain-legal arcives, take a bunch of choice "comply with our arbitrary demands or we'll drop your project from main and spread FUD about your license on slashdot" quotes (totally out of context, of course), and post them on a bright red page next to pictures of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and other communist dictators.

I was going to do it, but then I decided sinking to their level isn't the answer...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdreinhart wrote:
Y'know, one could set up a funny site in similar style insulting Debian.

I think that was my point -- and that of the people who replied after me to that thread on debian-user. :roll:

wdreinhart wrote:

I was going to do it, but then I decided sinking to their level isn't the answer...

The person who made that site is no more representative of the Debian community than the quotes on the site are of the Gentoo community. Actually is he even a Debian user? It seems everyone has just assumed he is, fogive me if I missed a bit where he says he uses Debian or something.
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abzs2k
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, the following paradox arises:
wdreinhart wrote:
I was going to do it, but then I decided sinking to their level isn't the answer...

Quote:
Fight fire with fire...

Also remember,
Niccolo Machiavelli wrote:
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

:wink:
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truekaiser
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Lews_Therin wrote:
I do not understand...how is -msse a flag that is considered "experimental"? Haven't SSE instructions been around for a while?

Ah, no, -msse is just silly. Set -march instead, let the compiler decide what to do.


i have msse and mmmx in my cflags along with -march=pentium4 and i haven't had any trouble. the only app that i had that crashs is gaim at random intervails with msn plugin active.(which i don't count atribute to the cflag)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that I had a dream about CFLAGS. :(
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
i have msse and mmmx in my cflags along with -march=pentium4 and i haven't had any trouble. the only app that i had that crashs is gaim at random intervails with msn plugin active.(which i don't count atribute to the cflag)
It is not a stability problem. It is simply redundant.
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Syntaxis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually is he even a Debian user? It seems everyone has just assumed he is, fogive me if I missed a bit where he says he uses Debian or something.

An excellent point.
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Lews_Therin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
Quote:
Actually is he even a Debian user? It seems everyone has just assumed he is, fogive me if I missed a bit where he says he uses Debian or something.

An excellent point.


Very first page of the thread: "He's a debian fanatic"
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Syntaxis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lews_Therin wrote:
Very first page of the thread: "He's a debian fanatic"

No...
Chineseyes wrote:
A good friend of mine who is also a debian fanatic sent me this link

He's describing the friend that informed him about the site, not the funroll-loops webmaster.
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