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HomerSimpson
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: My motherboard is very hot Reply with quote

While I was away on business my Gentoo Linux comptuer shutdown. I tried diagnosing it over the phone with my wife (god love her) and she plugged it into another outlet and it started back up. I figured it was a bad outlet. When I got home the system was down again. Pressing the power switch did nothing. I unplugged it and then plugged it into the original strip and then system made a sound like it was starting but then dead again. I figured there is a bad component or short somewhere. I opened the case and move wires around to see if there was a bad wire somewhere. When I tried to power it up it came up fine. I thought maybe one of the loose power connectors where shorting somewhere. While I was away from the computer it shutdown again. I fiddled with the wires again and it came back up. I fiddled with the wiring while it was running I figured if it shutdown or I got shocked (or both) I would at least figure out what it was. I can't get it to shut down. I messed with everything, even touching components. Right now the PSU, HDs, CDROM, video, chipset and cpu are running normal but at the back of the board where the connections are it is running hot. Very hot. None of the connectors on the back are hot but specifically a chip labeled PCNet is too hot to touch. When you get close to the board you can feel the heat. Networking works because I am on the net typing this message.

1) can dust cause a kinda of short? The board it very dusty.

I thought that maybe the shutdown could be heat related but once it is shutdown only fiddling with the wires gets it to come back up.

2) If I have a bad mobo (K7S5A) can I just replace with a K7N2 and reboot or do I have to change some drivers first? I realize the network will be different but will it at least boot?

3) Has anyone seen problems like these before?

I had a bad PSU about a year ago but I put a new one in.

Thx for listening
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Beattie
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you may have to boot to the live cd and recompile the kernel if you change the mobo, but it might just work.

if it's really dusty, try cleaning it out and see if it still gets that hot.
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Highly doubt it since many computers I've seen are horrably full of dust
3) Never seen anything like that before.
It could be that your board is shutting down from the obvious heat issue. To fix this why not just dust the mobo off and buy a few memory heatsinks and some thermal epoxy, rent a IR camera and take a shot of your mobo, then simply expoy the heatsinks on, many chips run hot as hell in a few of my computers but nothing that heatsinks won't fix.
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dalek
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried a google search to see if anyone else had this problem? Could it be that something is touching on the backside of the mobo?

Just thoughts. I'm not there and long distance diagnosis is pretty rough, actually short distance is rough sometimes. Weird things happen.

Later

:D :D :D :D
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's better to clean up your mobo. Dust also can be the reason of that all.
Check your power supply. May be it's just dying. If you have lmsensors check the voltages. Or if your BIOS has PC Health option check the voltages there.
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been travelling a lot so I am loosing track of what I have done. I did add a new HD (primary on second channel) and a 512MB RAM stick. It ran for a week or two or more like that before the problems started. The new/old RAM ran fine in my Windows machine for over a year (although it wouldn't run at its rated 333MHz. I am running it at 266MHz now). The new (and it is brand new) HD is running pretty hot and is showing dma errors.
Code:
hdc: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hdc: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
hdc: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hdc: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
hdc: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hdc: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
hdc: dma_intr: status=0x53 { DriveReady SeekComplete Index Error }
hdc: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
hdd: DMA disabled
although if I run hdparm now it shows it is on. Go figure.
I am going to put an hd cooler on it. I have a drive in my Windows comp that runs real hot and the HD cooler did the trick.

I am also going to reboot and run memtest86+ and see what that shows.

If this is a RAM problem though it could explain the reboot but not the no boot. (I mean it is dead). This is very perplexing. I will clean the mobo as best I can.

I checked the mobo of my faster K7N2 board and it runs cool. I searched Google about k7S5A heat issues and there seeme to be one with the chipset but it feels cool to me. It is the back of the mobo by the connectors that is putting off a lot of heat. That doesn't seem right to me. The mobo is 2 years old now. Maybe it is time to get a new one? I will clean it up, run the tests and see what happens.

Thanks for all your responses. These types of issues can be very hard to debug. This is a strange one.

Thx
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following what all you've tried and havent just now :oops: (forgive me, Friday night...), but in my experience, if one won't even start, first test memory and then video card. If it still won't fire up, then it's the mobo.

I used to go through them when my office was in another room. I was lucky to get a year out of one. But now in this room, I'm kinda going thru power supplies while my current mobo is over 18 months old. I got a real good antec power supply last time and it's made it past the one month threshold I was getting out of the others.

And I have one of those 500 dollar back up power things that's supposed to be a really quality surge protector too.

All that to say, power surges.... our worst enemy. Also, I've heard it's not too uncommon for mobos to short out.

I hope this helps some.
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an APC that this computer is plugged into. This power up thing is very strange. For example: It powers down. It will not power up until I unplug the PSU, plug it in again and then hit the power button. Sometimes it starts the system up and then 2 seconds later it is off. This last time I did this 5 times. Then it will run for an hour maybe and then reboot.

I ran memtest86+ and it came up with one failure. I removed the newest RAM sim in there and the one I am suspecting since there is a 256MB and 512MB and the error was at 298MB. Then the system wouldn't boot. Same scenario as above. After about 5 times of unplugging the PSU and restarting the system it powered up. Since one of the HDs was getting hot I have unplugged it and I will see how long it runs.

The voltage regulators and the network chip are very hot. I suppose this could be related to the video card but it is running at the moment. OK voltage regulators do get hot. My newer mobo in my other comp has the regulators underneath so I can't compare.

Thx again all for your help

Update
I may have found my problem. I did another google search k7s5a +regulation and found a link that says with a K7S5A you should have a total tco (+5v and +3.3v) of 220w for a cpu over 1.33 GHz. I am at 1.4GHz and at 189W tco. Even though it is a 400Watt PSU it can only supply 15A at 3.3v where this article says it should be 28A. I searched NewEgg.com and found that nearly all their PSUs from 300 - 550 watts all had 27A or 28A at 3.3v. Perhaps it is my PSU that is to blame. The system has run fine for a year. About 2 or 3 weeks ago I put in more RAM and another HD. I took out the RAM and the 2nd HD and see if it runs overnight. If so then I am off to get a new PSU. Funny thing is a new mobo would have been cheaper. Just wouldn't have solved the problem. ;)

Thx
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dalek
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this much, if a motor is "starved" for power it will run hot as hell, literally. If that P/S is not putting out enough voltage then it will likely run hot.

If you have a volt meter, try to measure what it is putting out. If you have a mobo that has the sensors built in and can read them from that. I can watch mine through Gkrellm. My 3.3v is actually 3.26, 5v is 5.0V, and 12v is 11.9v. That is pretty close. If that 3.3 is 3.0v or less that may cause problems. The 5v should not be less that 4.75 or so. The 12v should not be any less than 11.75 or so. The closer the better though.

If you can, get a good power supply that is well made. I have a APC 430w. It works well and I have had three hard drives and a CD R/W. I also have 6 80mm fans, counting P/S and CPU fans.

This may be a good start, not to pricey but not one of those cheapies that burn out hard drives and/or mobo.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-154-013&depa=1

If you have a air compressor, blow out the dust balls. When you do, make sure you use your fingers to keep the fans from spinning. I have messed up fans before doing that. They spin so fast they mess up the bearings, especially those little ones like on video cards and chipsets.

You can use a small screwdriver for the power supply one. I take the cover off of mine when I clean it. Do not touch the printed circuit board in there. There is a few capacitors that have over 200vDC in there. Nasty jolt there.

Hope something here helps. Keep posting what you get.

Later

:? :? :D :D :D
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HomerSimpson
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the input.

I just got a new 400W PSU but this one puts out 292Watts on the 3.3 and 5v rails as opposed to my other 400W PSU only could supply 189W. The system has powered up but I would bet that it is only a matter of time for this problem to come back so I am going to get a new mobo tomorrow. The back of the board is really heating up as before.

The nice part about getting a new mobo is that I am going to try to get one with built in sound that supports hardware mixing (if such a beast exists). I am tired of Firefox crashing when there is FLASH on a page. I understand that this has to do with the lack of hardware mixing with the onboard sound.

Any suggestions on an AMD based mobo that has built in sound that supports hardware mixing and is supported by Linux? I will search these forums as well as the ALSA site but if you know off the top of your head I would appreciate it.

Thanks again for all your help.
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read somewhere that hardware mixing with built-in audio don't exist. I, or we, may be wrong though. Most are done in software.

Whatever is getting hot may be pulling all that power from the P/S and causing it to shutdown from the lack of power. Just a thought.

Later

:D :D :D :D
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that hardware mixing isn't suported by the intel8x0 driver although my card should support it (nforce won't release enough info for the developers to make a real good alsa driver for the card (a7n8cx-deluxe with nforce2). But for a lot of cards it is supported. You will have to check out the alsa documentation though.

So be aware that hardware mixing isn't enough, there also has to be a good enough alsa driver for it
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the new PSU the system has stayed running for an hour. The mobo is getting hot and the PSU is pretty hot so I just shut it down. Tomorrow I am going to PC Club and getting a new mobo.

Thanks for the insight to the mobos. I had my eye on a $69 Gigabyte board but I can't see what sound hardware is on there. I saw that the nvidia driver is the standard intel8x0. So I agree with you guys that hardware mixing doesn't exist with on board audio in Linux or it is hard to find.

Before I get a new mobo do you have any suggestions for me as far as features that I night want. My last 4 3 mobos have been of the value < $80 variety. I don't really need cutting edge performance since I only have 266MHz RAM and an AMD 1700+. I don't play games on this comp either. It only has a GForce MX 400. It is my Linux play machine (and mail server atm).

The GigaByte for $69 seems to be a good value. It has the KT600 chipset on it. I don't know anything about it.

Any recommendations?

Thx
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a google search and links show it compatable with Linux. Sounds like a good deal.

Let us know if new mobo does the same thing.

Later

Oh, mine works good to. It's below.

:D :D :D :D
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just purchased a Gigabyte K7 Triton. It has the nforce 2 chipset. I installed everything but I can't boot. i get

Code:

VFS: Cannot open root device"hda3" or unknown-block (0,0)
Please append a correct "root=" boot option
Kernel panic: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block (0,0)


I booted into the LiveCD and looking in /proc it looks like everything is there where it should be. That is my HD is hda. I am able to mount /dev/hda3 (which is my root partition) and chroot and compile.

Does this error mean I have the wrong IDE driver? I have the generic IDE driver checked in the kernel. If this is an IDE driver problem, how do I determine which IDE driver I need?

I googled and am still googling but I am anxious to get my system back up and running,

Thx
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm it might be your ide driver. The ide driver you should use is depended on the chipset on your motherboard.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the PCI generic driver enabledbut now I also enabled the generic ide driver and now it boots!

Unfortunately the hd performance is terrible. No DMA. I tried enabling it but it said it wasn't allowed. I suppose this has something to do with the fact that I am using the generic driver. I saw in another post that someone said to enable the nvidia IDE driver. I do not have that option in my kernel config. 2.6.4-rc1-mm1. I will try emerging the latest. I can't get video going either. Networking and USB seem to work though.

Hopefully now that I have a new mobo and PSU my shutdowns will not happen anymore. I will report back in a few days on my system stability.

I will start new threads on my other problems.

Thank you all so much for your help!
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, you need this one under device drivers, then ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL support, select this one for sure:

Code:
│ │               <*>         AMD and nVidia IDE support                                                   │ │


You may want to enable DMA there too. This is all under "PCI IDE chipset support". You have to hit "y" and then it pops up.

Compile that kernel then point grub to it instead of the old one. Should work. We hope.

Later

:D :D :D :D

Oh, that was for 2.6 kernel, 2.4 should be about the same for that.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swear I looked at it 5 times and didn't see it. When I finally got my system to boot by using the default driver and ran make menuconfig, I finally saw it. I guess it was always there, I just didn't see it. I enabled it and rebooted but still no go. I am going to try again but disable the generic driver and just keep the AMD/Nvidia one.

dalek, thanks for all your help!

I am currently using my Gentoo box with my new PSU and mobo. :)

I also got video working. :)

Update
That didn't do it. I still can't enable dma. I read some stuff on the forums but it doesn't help. They say to enable AMD and Nvidia IDE support. I did, but no go. dalek, what kernel version are you running?
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the output with
hdparm -i /dev/hda (I presume it''s hda for you too)
and
hdparm -d1 /dev/hda
(both as root ofcourz)
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what my screen looks like:

Code:
 Linux Kernel v2.6.6 Configuration
 ─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
  ┌──────────────────────────────────────── ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL support ─────────────────────────────────────────┐
  │  Arrow keys navigate the menu.  <Enter> selects submenus --->.  Highlighted letters are hotkeys.  Pressing │
  │  <Y> includes, <N> excludes, <M> modularizes features.  Press <Esc><Esc> to exit, <?> for Help.  Legend:   │
  │  [*] built-in  [ ] excluded  <M> module  < > module capable                                                │
  │                                                                                                            │
  │ ┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │
  │ │               <*> ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL support                                                            │ │
  │ │               <*>   Enhanced IDE/MFM/RLL disk/cdrom/tape/floppy support                                │ │
  │ │               ---     Please see Documentation/ide.txt for help/info on IDE drives                     │ │
  │ │               [ ]     Use old disk-only driver on primary interface                                    │ │
  │ │               <*>     Include IDE/ATA-2 DISK support                                                   │ │
  │ │               [*]       Use multi-mode by default                                                      │ │
  │ │               [ ]       Auto-Geometry Resizing support                                                 │ │
  │ │               <*>     Include IDE/ATAPI CDROM support                                                  │ │
  │ │               < >     Include IDE/ATAPI TAPE support (EXPERIMENTAL)                                    │ │
  │ │               < >     Include IDE/ATAPI FLOPPY support                                                 │ │
  │ │               < >     SCSI emulation support                                                           │ │
  │ │               [ ]     IDE Taskfile Access                                                              │ │
  │ │               [*]     IDE Taskfile IO (EXPERIMENTAL)                                                   │ │
  │ │               ---     IDE chipset support/bugfixes                                                     │ │
  │ │               <*>     generic/default IDE chipset support                                              │ │
  │ │               [ ]     CMD640 chipset bugfix/support                                                    │ │
  │ │               [*]     PCI IDE chipset support                                                          │ │
  │ │               [*]       Sharing PCI IDE interrupts support                                             │ │
  │ │               [ ]       Boot off-board chipsets first support                                          │ │
  │ │               [*]       Generic PCI IDE Chipset Support                                                │ │
  │ │               < >       OPTi 82C621 chipset enhanced support (EXPERIMENTAL)                            │ │
  │ │               < >       RZ1000 chipset bugfix/support                                                  │ │
  │ │               [*]       Generic PCI bus-master DMA support                                             │ │
  │ │               [*]         Force enable legacy 2.0.X HOSTS to use DMA                                   │ │
  │ │               [*]         Use PCI DMA by default when available                                        │ │
  │ │               [ ]           Enable DMA only for disks                                                  │ │
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I'm currently running 2.6.1 but getting ready to change over to 2.6.6. I run the latest if it is stable for me.

I suspect kernel but who knows.

What version are you running?

Later

:D :D :D :D
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HomerSimpson
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Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 869
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Strange on my a7n8x-deluxe it's working flawlesly, my .config:
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ADMA=y
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AMD74XX=y
CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA=y

Is it possible that you added it as a module and haven''t got the module loaded?


It is built in to the kernel and my .config
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ADMA=y
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AMD74XX=y
CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_PCI=y

Sorry. I have two threads going now. I thought maybe since the other person got it working I would have better luck with him seeing my post if it were in the other forum. I will stay on this one.

Incidentally I posted in the kernel newsgroup. There is a person there helping me as well but after giving him all my info he doesn't know either. He suggested using the vanilla kernel. Unfortunately for Gentoo the vanilla sources are not yet on 2.6. Just my luck though, PAN is not downloading any messages from the server since yesterday when I posted. I don't know what is up with that.

dalek, looking at your settings I added the generic drivers back in and the "Force enable legacy 2.0.X HOSTS to use DMA" option and I will retry.

Also you mentioned that you were going to try 2.6.6. It is still masked. Do you know why? Is it safe to try?

--Edit--
Oh yeah, I am running 2.6.4-rc1-mm1



Thx

Update
I added the generic drivers back in as well as adding the line "Force enable legacy 2.0.X HOSTS to use DMA". I also did a make mrproper. I changed two (OK well 3) things at once but I believe it had something to do with make mrproper but now my nforce2 IDE chipset is recognized and DMA is now on!!!.

Code:
# hdparm -tT /dev/hda
 
/dev/hda:
 Timing buffer-cache reads:   1424 MB in  2.00 seconds = 710.69 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads:  150 MB in  3.02 seconds =  49.68 MB/sec


Thank you all so much for your help.

dalek, BlackEdder, I don't know how to thank you enough for sticking with me on this!!!

P.S. My computer with the new mobo and PSU has been running for 24 hours straight. A new record! :)

Thanks again.
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dalek
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Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1344
Location: Mississippi USA

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your welcome. I learned the hard way, if that kernel ain't right, it will be buggy at the least.

WOW, lighting bad over here. < ducking for cover>

Later

I hope.

8O :D :D :D :D
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AgentMascan
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Idaho, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:?: Have you cleaned out that dust yet?

dust & oil-->heat & other bad things
heat--> additional bad things including system instability
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HomerSimpson
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Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 869
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried cleaning the dust out first but it didn't make a difference. I didn't use any special cleaners. This mobo was on its 3rd PSU so I just decided not to mess with it anymore and put in a new mobo and PSU.

Thx for the help. :)
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