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nrl
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
ratbert90 wrote:
vi isn't licensed under the gpl


Isn't the original vi licensed under BSD?

Yes but it hasn't always been which, I suppose, is why *BSD use nvi (IIRC). It was finally released under the BSD licence in January 2002 by Caldera, see here:
http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/
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papal_authority
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the points so far for including vi are:

[1] Vi is part of the international POSIX.2 (IEEE 1003.2) standard.
[2] Vi is very small, so the space taken up would be negligible.
[3] Many people like it and it's easy to move from different UNIX systems.
[4] Nano can remain the default editor so it will not affect people who prefer nano.

The points so far against vi's inclusion are:

[1] You guys are all whiners.
Answer: Fair enough :D
[2] Why don't they install emacs then?
Answer: Because it's not part of POSIX and it's huge.
[3] I don't mind not having vi on the CD.
Answer: Then you won't mind if it is present.
[4] This [insert Linux distro] isn't POSIX compliant and doesn't have vi.
Answer: Neither does Windows XP. It's irrelevent. Let's make Gentoo the best distro there is.

Conclusion? Vi should be on the CD.
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abzs2k
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

georwell wrote:
Nano for newbies and that is a good default for Gentoo. But newbies should take up the task of learning vi. Simply because it is installed on every single Unix system you will ever use.

Funny you should say that because its NOT installed by default on gentoo. First time I realized this I was shocked. I kept trying to use nano like vi but it didnt work :( . But thats ok because vi (or rather vim) was the second thing I emerged into my brand new gentoo system (the first was lynx) :) .
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will you people ever stop? :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pwnz3r wrote:
Will you people ever stop? :roll:

Why does it bother you? :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because on a scale of one to ten, the whole thing is really retarded.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pwnz3r wrote:
Because on a scale of one to ten, the whole thing is really retarded.

So? No one is forcing you to read the thread. Just because the subject doesn't interest you is no excuse for trolling.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, if you really need foo on the liveCD, just use knoppix instead.

Because that's all the liveCD is, really- a linux distro that's booted directly from a CD.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gentoo 2004.0 livecd has vim on it
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mastergoon wrote:
gentoo 2004.0 livecd has vim on it

Is emacs on there? (Just kidding).

Is it really in 2004.0? Funny if it is, because this thread was started on the 7th of May, and 2004.0 was released back on 1st March. Although, it does say "the AMD64 2004.0 live disc".
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2004 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think they should include vim

i installed gentoo again a few days back and disliked using nano

using nano is so frustratingly fiddly when you are a vim user :(
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second Gentoo having nano as default editor, simple and easy (ctrl + x for exit and save file, see it's simple), less memory drain, so is pico, also nano is implemented based on UNIX pico 8O, so they are both good.
Gentoo definitely needs nano in the liveCD, and in the system too :P
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I understand the need to be economical on the boot CD, I really think it makes sense to include both vi and nano.

Everywhere I've ever gone in work or otherwise, experienced UNIX users have been in the habit of using vi. It really is ubiquitous. It's not that vi users can't use nano, it's that I imagine it's just irritating to have to use a different tool to do such a trivial task. I know I fly through text files quickly, and a lot of the keystrokes I hit are by habit (I am a nano user BTW). If I was forced to use another editor, even during bootstrapping, I certainly could, but I'd find it irritating.

It's sort of like, imagine if you went to use an ATM machine and all of the numbers on the keypad were backwards, counting from 9 down to to zero. Like nano, the keys are generally labeled, and you certainly could adjust to it, but it would be irritating to have to do that, especially if you had to use the ATM 10 times in a day like you might while installing Gentoo and modifying text files.

You obviously can't accomodate everyone's preferences every step of the way in a compact boot CD, but a system just feels...vulgar, without vi, even though I don't use it. I think it's a reasonable request.

I have been planning for awhile to stop using nano altogether and start using vi because of its ubiquity. There are several machines at work running a variety of different Unixes and Unix-like OSes that don't have pico (or pine), or nano, and only have vi.

Also - can someone help me out; I have a vague memory of pico not being able to handle long lines (> 255 characters) well. I can't remember the details; nor do I remember if it was also a problem in nano, but I suspect that it was. I think someone had a web page railing against pico because it had the habit of truncating long lines improperly.

I can't remember the exact details. Does anyone know what the hell I'm remembering?

It may well be the case that in editing config files you rarely ever create lines that long, but still that would seem to be at best inelegant.

I think all of the points are well taken in the sense that people who aren't used to a specific text editor would find nano the easiest (I find it easy because I've been using pico since the first time I ever went on the net, and used pine for college e-mail).

But vi is hardly a "niche" program. If there is to be one exception in terms of the boot CD and redundancy, I think including vi along with nano would be it.

As for the -w switch for nano, I'm so used to typing it that in the few instances where I don't want it, I find myself typing it by habit. It almost hurts to type nano without the -w

You could always set up an alias.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How hard would it be to stick vi on the CD as well so you can *gasp* choose for yourself. 8O
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the light bulb drama again, 8O 8O
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=70970

just change every "light bulb" to "editor" :lol:

* which editor is the best editor to edit xyz ( replace xyz to your need)
* which editor brand is under what coffee licence
* editor A is superior over editor B
* the technique of making editor A or B
* which editor is blah blah :wink:

like that 8O
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quag7 wrote:
Everywhere I've ever gone in work or otherwise, experienced UNIX users have been in the habit of using vi. It really is ubiquitous.


But this represents a major opportunity for Gentoo! The ubiquity of vi means that vi-haters are left out in the cold; at present, Windows is the only operating system usable by devout, ultra-orthadox haters of modal text editing, thereby explaining its popularity.

Gentoo can establish a brand identity as the only UNIX that does not include vi. This way, millions of vi-haters will switch from Windows to Gentoo and it will quickly become the most popular operating system ever.

-Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from POSIX (which GNU/Linux ignores wherever it's convenient anyway) nobody has yet presented a technical argument for why Gentoo LiveCDs should include vi, but not emacs, ed, jed, ted, jedit, joe, jove, pico, teco, nedit and fte. I'm starting to doubt that there are any.

Nano works, and a guru who uses vi(1) can adapt to nano MUCH more easily than a n00b can adapt to vi.

(1) Outside the Linux/UNIX world, these people are generally referred to as "extreme sadomasochists" and referred to counseling programs. :D
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:48 am    Post subject: Alt-F2 Reply with quote

If you want to use vi, Alt-F2, login to the non-chrooted environment and edit files from there with vi, remembering to prepend /mnt/gentoo to everything. That's what I just did and it worked fine. Alt-F1 to flip back to the chrooted environment to run commands and stuff which needs to be in that environment.

When I had enough of a system installed, "emerge vi" to get vi installed and change the default editor.

My only issue is that vi is installed into /usr/bin rather than being in /bin, which means it won't work if I don't have /usr mounted (which will be when something has gone really seriously wrong, and my small niggling issues with nano will grow out of all proportion).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bah! ed should be the only editor on the livecd. Anything else is just waste of diskspace


VIM???[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vi works on any livecd. Before I chroot into a new to be installed system I just copy /usr/bin/vi and /usr/lib/libgpm* to the target system. This way vi will work in the chroot and I don't have to use the evil nano.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that having vi on the cd would be nice, as I'm used to using vi, and when using nano, I'll end up writing :wq when I'm trying to exit the file :wink: But I can adapt, after all, Its only the install, and those new to Linux/vi can use nano with not much trouble. I think vi would scare people away...I know my first time using vi, went like this "wtf...how the hell do I exit this shit?" and after trying a lot of things, I just closed the terminal, and my file didn't save anyway after all that trouble...haha I don't think that there should be an argument between using vi and emacs, it's all up to what you want to use....
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have both? The reason they have nano is because it's simpler than anything else, and it does what it's supposed to do fine (edit configuration files). I don't see why they can't put Vi/m on though, it can't take that much disc space.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ap viper wrote:
Why not have both? The reason they have nano is because it's simpler than anything else, and it does what it's supposed to do fine (edit configuration files). I don't see why they can't put Vi/m on though, it can't take that much disc space.

It doesn't take that much disk space up. They just don't want to bring up the old flamewar between VI and Emacs, that's all I guess.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
Honestly, if you really need foo on the liveCD, just use knoppix instead.

Because that's all the liveCD is, really- a linux distro that's booted directly from a CD.


I'm sorry for what I'm about to ask and the fact that it is way offtopic. I just want a clear, straight and true answer. My native language is not english so I don't really know the answer to my question. I see it all around and I still don't know what it is. I've searched the forums and I could not find the answer.

WTF is "foo"? Please... jokeable answers are not needed.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://web.bilkent.edu.tr/Online/Jargon30/JARGON_F/FOO.HTML
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