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Genone
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefou wrote:
It just works :), so no one need to implement more code in portage that adds nothing new.

It is already implemented in 2.1 :D
Quote:
You get version-support, too.

sets have that too.
Quote:
Noone has to maintain and to comment one more feature.

As world is (will be) implemented as a set in 2.1 we get it for free.
Quote:
And then the hundrets of questions, about the differences between world, and a meta-package and a self-written set.

As said above, there is (technically) no difference between world and a set in 2.1. Actually you might even be able to rename world if you don't like that name :wink:

Quote:
Another thought:
Do you have ever tried to copy an old world-file to a fresh install and call:
Code:

emerge world

... nothing will happen. :( You have to call
Code:

for i in $(cat /var/lib/portage/world); do emerge $i; done


... and if an error occures, where to resume -- the worldfile is unsorted.

Much easier:
Code:
emerge $(< /var/lib/portage/world)

Works with --resume too.
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lefou
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:

It is already implemented in 2.1 :D

when will 2.1 come to us?

Quote:
Quote:
Another thought:
Code:

emerge world

... nothing will happen. :( You have to call
Code:

for i in $(cat /var/lib/portage/world); do emerge $i; done


... and if an error occures, where to resume -- the worldfile is unsorted.

Much easier:
Code:
emerge $(< /var/lib/portage/world)

Works with --resume too.

Yes, than is cool, thanks. (But its bash and portage combined. No solution out of the box.)
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brianahr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: idea regarding USE flags during install Reply with quote

So I know us gentooers like to keep things custom. Ok. Fine. But, occasionally its nice to be able to put a gentoo system up in a hurry, and undoubtedly, your likely to forget some of the use flags, and wind up recompiling your favourite apps later to get things like printing support, X, and whatnot. So, I have an idea, that in order to facilitate quick(er) installs, maybe we _slightly_ change the install. Heres what I mean. Suppose on install, you have the following choices: a) use your own set of use flags b) use a predefined set of flags and/or modify a set of base USE of flags (ie allow for customization). The point is, maybe make a few predefined sets of use flags, and put those somewhere on/near the install so we have some sensible sets of default USE flags to choose from and use as a base. Some people want desktop systems, so we create maybe like Gnome and KDE sets of USE flags. Some people want to run gentoo without X, so they get a very minimalistic set of flags. Get the idea? Obviously if there is one default set, no one will be happy. But if there are a few, it kindof makes specializing your box a little easier because you have a base to go off of. I dont mean that we need to make 100 different sets of default flags - I mean just a few sensible standards for things like using a gentoo box as a desktop system, server, etc.
Comments/Suggestions/Flames all welcome. ;-)

EDIT: Merged thread. --pjp
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your idea is not a silly one for me, but... really, custamization is the power of a linux system, so, to make predefined schemes would not help linux in anything.

To explain it better: desktop users have so much problems (very different ones) and to solve them alltogether would be like to integrate winxp in linux, since you would have to make happy all the people on the world, though, compromissing the OS (dont think there is any dev willing to look afterwards that...), and server users are so intelligent (most times, not all of them) to leave any other one to manage their problems automatically by a silly win-like installer (that would mean to install zillions of patchs, antivirs, and, at leat one firewall; and also some reboots, nohting recommended for servers, at least, serious servers).
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jimadilo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but if you have a standard set of use flags, then, why bother compiling at all. Why not just use precompiled packages? And isn't that already done?

I mean, I suppose the pre-compiled stuff at the moment only represents a one set of use flags on eash architecture, but that could be changed, so that there was a gnome, kde, minimal, etc, for each arch.

But for me that would seem a bit pointless. I use gentoo specifically for the fact that I can change the use flags. If I didn't want that, I'd probably just move over to a prebuilt linux disto.

Also, would certain sets of use flags partially mandate certain sets of software?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat.
Not an installing Gentoo support question.
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Lepaca Kliffoth
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's with Gentoo users and their rejection of any default setting?? For crying out loud, you can go change the flags in the make.conf whenever you want!
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no idea, aparently the whole idea of USE flags is uber-complex.. yet they can manage to ~arch no problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo should come with ufed by default and mention it in the manual, that would clearly be an improvement.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject: well.... Reply with quote

Here we go again. This is exactly what I mean. Yes, customization is an important aspect of any linux system. But my point is you dont HAVE to use the sets at all - however, at least providing a few sensible defaults will give people a starting point. Its not the same as going with binaries either - The point is, if your experienced with gentoo, *your gonna wind up editing your use flags anyway* so it shouldnt bother you *at all*. The first time I installed gentoo 2 years ago, I didnt get the point that USE really did what it does - and I emerged gentoo expecting a working desktop system, to get, well, a desktop environment in which there was no audio support, printing support, spell checking, etc. Needless to say, it completly sucked because I wound up recompiling _everything_ because there just wasnt a sensible set of defaults. Thats a BIG waste of time. You can blame me all you want for not getting it the first time around - but thats exactly the elitist crap I've been battling off since I got involved with gentoo. Gentoo should be accessible. Not elitist. Period.
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Q-collective
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: well.... Reply with quote

brianahr wrote:
Gentoo should be accessible. Not elitist. Period.

See my statement about ufed.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is accessable, so long as you read the bloody documentation and follow it. Just because you read docs, follow instructions, and don't blame the OS for your failings, doesn't make you 'l33t', it just makes the ones who don't lazy.
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brims
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also didn't realize the impact of use flags when I first installed, it was only recently that I realized what I really needed.

Blame the OS for his failings? He wasn't an experienced Gentoo user before he used Gentoo, I know that no one can make a claim like that. I want someone to show me that they had a perfectly running system when they first installed Gentoo, without an experienced Gentoo user sitting there helping them.

AidanJT, how can you compare ~arch and use flags. You know how big my use flag listing is in /etc/make.conf. Hell it's 3 lines long on a full screen terminal with a 1400x1050 resolution, when I first started installing Gentoo on my computers a while back, I had maybe 5 use flags.

jimadilo, why bother compiling at all? Hmmm cflags for one, march flag, all that stuff. Precompiled sets of packages for every set of use flags for every supported architecture? I hope I'm not the only one seeing the flaw in this plan, you know how much hard drive space the Gentoo servers and mirrors would have to have to support that?

Seems to me a lot of you aren't open minded enough to see brianahr's point, for someone who just wants to get a system up and running as quickly as possible and also for new Gentoo users, these default sets that you have the option to choose from would help out. Some of you bring up this point of "you have a choice with Linux/open source". Well guess what, here's another choice.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No use + guis + tons of default apps + a default config = mandrake :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
No use + guis + tons of default apps + a default config = mandrake :lol:

mandrake = redhat
redhat = reason I started looking for a better distro
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:18 am    Post subject: How about gentoo profiles? SingleUser/Server/Laptop/Desktop Reply with quote

Just the other day I was reconfiguring a friends gentoo desktop to be more optimised for a single user desktop usage. It took quite a bit of reading and fiddling. That got me thinking.

Wouldnt it be nice if gentoo had the option of having usage profiles?

I mean, gentoo already uses a sort of profile system so that you can define what cflags you want and which use flags get considered when compiling.

How about taking it one step further. To allow another config file, or perhaps an added entry to the make.conf where you can define what your system is intended for. e.g. Single User Desktop, Single User Laptop, Server, etc.

So if you select Single User Desktop, then your system gets built with certain default settings which are appropriate for a single user system. e.g. Shutting down without root password, automounting removable media without much hassle or need for re-configuration (depending of course on which desktop you choose). Also having the proper access rights assigned by default to certain devices. Having stuff like hotplug installed by default, etc.

Similarily if you select Single User Laptop, then certain stuff will get built by default such as powersaving, wireless,bluetooth,analog modem. In each case the access rights would be set so that the laptop user can easily switch between configs without the need for root access.

Now with these added profiles, the user should be able to fine-grain control individual settings in each profile. To customise for their own purposes, should they so desire.

Taken one step further, especially for laptops, one could make a central database for gentoo specific laptop configurations. So for example, if you had a ibm thinkpad t42, then you could emerge (or whatever) the thinkpad t42 profile (if it were provided) and that would take care of some of the configuration for you. e.g. hardware drivers, power management.

Ok, so maybe that last idea might be a bit beyond the scope of whats realistic, but perhaps three simple added USE flags might be enough. USE="desktop, server, laptop" or something like that.

EDIT: Merged. --pjp
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would surely make gentoo more easily installable for noobs.

But what about maintainabilty???

if some of the automagically done settings do not work anymore? How would said noob find out how to fix this? If he/she laid hands on the config files for every setting in the system (more or less 8) ) the answer if clear. If there was or was not finetuning of a preconfigured system involved it is even more complicated to get to the point, even for more experienced users!

IMHO the current way is much more consistent. Providing documentation for each and any task a noob could ask for (even if it could be more centralized some times :roll: )

What would be IMHO an improvement for beginners is to provide preconfigured world files for special applications such as "Internet-MP3-video", "Office-Internet", ...
That would give a preselection of applications to have a running system wich nearly all needed applications with just one "emerge world"

Or to make it easier to maintain, meta-ebuilds for "internet" "mp3" "office" "dvd" "video" "music" "whatever"

That way a linux beginner would not have to read and test for every application he may or may not need. If one of the preselected applications does not fit the needs, a little searching will give some alternatives.
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: How about gentoo profiles? SingleUser/Server/Laptop/Desk Reply with quote

ChojinDSL wrote:
Just the other day I was reconfiguring a friends gentoo desktop to be more optimised for a single user desktop usage. It took quite a bit of reading and fiddling. That got me thinking.

Wouldnt it be nice if gentoo had the option of having usage profiles?

I mean, gentoo already uses a sort of profile system so that you can define what cflags you want and which use flags get considered when compiling.

How about taking it one step further. To allow another config file, or perhaps an added entry to the make.conf where you can define what your system is intended for. e.g. Single User Desktop, Single User Laptop, Server, etc.

So if you select Single User Desktop, then your system gets built with certain default settings which are appropriate for a single user system. e.g. Shutting down without root password, automounting removable media without much hassle or need for re-configuration (depending of course on which desktop you choose). Also having the proper access rights assigned by default to certain devices. Having stuff like hotplug installed by default, etc.

But not everyone wants such an insecure desktop setup. For instance, my PC is currently on my uni network, and it's in my on-campus accommodation so is potentially accessible to other people. This means I do lock my screen when away, I do have passwords on shutting down. And not everyone wants the same setup.

Quote:
Similarily if you select Single User Laptop, then certain stuff will get built by default such as powersaving, wireless,bluetooth,analog modem. In each case the access rights would be set so that the laptop user can easily switch between configs without the need for root access.

Again, here we can see major differences between setups. My laptop for instance doesn't have bluetooth or an analog modem. And how are you going to install wireless for every possible setup? For instance I can't run the Windows drivers with ndiswrapper on my laptop because I run an amd64 setup and can't find 64-bit Windows drivers, and while there's linux native drivers in development they are highly experimental and currently must be used with -rc kernels.

Quote:
Now with these added profiles, the user should be able to fine-grain control individual settings in each profile. To customise for their own purposes, should they so desire.

Taken one step further, especially for laptops, one could make a central database for gentoo specific laptop configurations. So for example, if you had a ibm thinkpad t42, then you could emerge (or whatever) the thinkpad t42 profile (if it were provided) and that would take care of some of the configuration for you. e.g. hardware drivers, power management.

Or why not just install something like Mandrake which does all the configuration for you anyhow? In my opinion the whole point of Gentoo is that you can install a given setup exactly how you want.

Quote:
Ok, so maybe that last idea might be a bit beyond the scope of whats realistic, but perhaps three simple added USE flags might be enough. USE="desktop, server, laptop" or something like that.

And what exactl would a setup with the desktop use flag have as extra dependencies? Everyones setup is different. Some people use xorg6, some xorg7 and some xgl. Some people use gnome, some kde, some xfce, some any of the other wm's available, some run no x at all. Some people have a very secure desktop setup, some much less so. There would forever be arguments as to what should or should not be included.

One of the things about Gentoo, in my opinion, is that it does't need fancy installers, install profiles and such. You install it once. After that if you need to reinstall for any reason you can simply copy your kernel config, /etc a couple of directories out of /var and your world file. With these few items you can have the new system up and running, excluding compile time, in no time at all in the same or very similar configuration to what it was.

Allen
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ChojinDSL
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to assume that if profiles were implemented, that you then would HAVE to use them.
Thats not what I am suggesting at all. Just maybe certain common default settings to reduce redunancy.

The profiles would have to be structured in such a way that the user can still make fine adjustments.

As for wireless. Well for a start, a profile for a specific laptop would know which wireless driver to emerge. Or at the very least it could set up your system with the proper permissions for certain devices so that you can change the configuration on the fly without needing to enter your root password.

Just because these profiles were available, doesnt mean you have to use them.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the recent arrivals... forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-1080032.html#1080032
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChojinDSL wrote:
You seem to assume that if profiles were implemented, that you then would HAVE to use them.
Thats not what I am suggesting at all. Just maybe certain common default settings to reduce redunancy.


I think that what he means is that that can be already done easier by inserting a mandrake or fedora cd and choosing the desktop option in the graphical menu, rather than setting a use flag. I you want to use gentoo then you want to use the use flags. I mean: one day someone decided that the one-by-one system was so much complicated for users, and decided to abstract it into a menu, now, we have that concept into a menu in a binary distro, and want to revert it back to a config file with lots of little words flying around... I just dont see the point. The main power of gentoo is the usage and comprension of the use flags. There is no point in the use of 3 pre-made sets of use flags, for that, it is better to use a premade distro, like debian, which is excellent, instead of duplicating the work here.

Well, the exception comes if you want to feel the '133tness' because you just compiled "with your own hands" a working OS. Other than that, there is no point at all in my opinion in rebuilding again, and again, and again, a system that has only a couple of defaults, when you can made of that a binary distro.
Would be nice? Sure, if the Gentoo devs were bored and had nothing to do. But since there are lots or areas that need more work, better than to expand the distro, I dont see the point in this feature. There are lots of preconfigured distros that do that, and do it so well.

Just my 2 cents. I might be completely wrong. But don't plan to change my mind anyway :twisted:

- Regards, people.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the idea is to create the possibility of user defined package sets... Hey, this is a meta-distribution, right?!? I wanna make my own distribution based on gentoo. :) Jokes appart, I think it would be a good way to exchange knowledge. Emerge my package set and try the combination of packages I selected; let me try yours, so I may find new ways to do things. And it would be great if you plan to maintain a lot of gentoo based boxes: you don't have time to select individual configurations for each one.

As far as I understood, GLEP 21 can be used with normal packages. It's like gnome-base and others: you select a package-set that sets a part of your system, then you continue from there, emerging individual packages.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Creating individual ebuild lists like "world"? Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I recently had problems with my world file (solved now), in the course of fixing that I came to the point where I thought it would be a nice portage feature to create and maintain individual package lists for myself.

This way I could simply "emerge -up coreapps", where "coreapps" is simply a file listing all ebuilds I consider as my core applications (and which I created manually with [insert your favourite editor]).

My first intention was to create such a file at the same location I found "world", but that did not work :-) Maybe this functionality is already built into portage and there is just a commandline switch missing? If yes, please let me know :-) If not, I would like to hear your oppinions on that. I could even think of a commandline switch for emerge allowing me to automatically add an ebuild I am going to install into a certain ebuild-list, e.g. "emerge --add-to core-apps editors/vim". This command would install vim and dependencies, add the vim ebuild to my core-apps files (and not to my world file) and that's it.

emerge could search for such a ebuild-list-file first and if there is no match, check the portage tree for an ebuild that matches. If someone wants to force emerge to install/upgrade an ebuild that has the same name as a listfile, she&he could use a commandline switch or simpy specify the ebuild name in "category/ebuild" format.

What do YOU think?

Kind regards,
Heiko
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not a new idea, in fact :)
See GLEP 21 (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0021.html) for detailed information. I have no idea on the status of implementations, either by users or developers.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged the above two threads here.
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