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Intel, AMD, Microsoft/Palladium & the TCPA
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TheCoop
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it just me or is everyone except microsoft and the opensource community blind to the implications of this?

also, im sure the gpl/linux/opensource and sysadmin/banker etc ppl would protest very vehemontly about this to congress (cos the us will be the first to implement this), if they didnt have bush in charge who doesnt know the difference between his knee and elbow they might pay attention
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squanto
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious wrote:
This, to me, is the only bright speck of hope. Disabling TCPA in the bios, and then dusting off my ( very dusty ) old reverse engineering and protocol breaking 'skillz' to try and create a user controllable software emulation of a Palladium board.

Will these guys be forced not to make their own bios anymore once we have palladium in the bios? Cause wouldn't that be removing some type of copy protection and be illegal under dmca? If so, I think we need to fix the dmca, cause a corp shouldn't be able to bully around law abiding consumers like M$ seems to be planning to do.
:?:
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bpkri
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about free and/or shareware with TCPA and Palladium? Did they already think about a solution for that? I mean - not every little program can get a license/key to be used on a TCPA system... that woud surely be expensive...
Ideas?
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TheCoop
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats the point: microsoft is trying to completely comtrol the market and not allow ANY non microsoft products, inc linux and all open source software, to be used AT ALL on tcpa systems
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bpkri
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheCoop wrote:
thats the point: microsoft is trying to completely comtrol the market and not allow ANY non microsoft products, inc linux and all open source software, to be used AT ALL on tcpa systems


I can understand their point in fighting GPL - I don't think it is good, but I can understand it. The rest - no that cannot happen. Too many people know that a market with only one participiciant is good for no one. Furthermore there are other companies who are able to produce keys for TCPA (IBM is one, I think). So the market will not be freed of ALL other programs. I also suspect that 3rd party companies will be granted keys to reasonable (yet high) prices.
Still there is a lot of software out there that is not a threat to M$ - either because it is too small or just focuses on something so specialised that they don't bother programming it. Often free or shareware (not GPL) ...
What about them?
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carmiac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

squanto wrote:
Unless I really need a refresher on how any laws work, I thought it was something like "by the people, for the people"? Wouldn't that mean that atleast in the US that stuff made by the people could be used by the people?


Unfortunatly that hasn't been true for quite some time. :cry: Few people have the time/energe/care to keep up with political issues, esp considering how complex they are now. Large companies can, and do, with thier large teams of lawyers. Washington only listens to one thing: dollars. Dollars to use in their next campaign, dollars for their pockets, dollars for expensive project in their areas to get votes, dollars to keep/make the economy happy.

Its all about dollars and sense. :evil:
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carmiac wrote:
Washington only listens to one thing: dollars. Dollars to use in their next campaign, dollars for their pockets, dollars for expensive project in their areas to get votes, dollars to keep/make the economy happy.


That's not really true. They listen to dollars because those corporate sponsors help underwrite their campaigns. But politicians won't ignore angry voters because the bottom line is that voters get them into office, no matter how much money is spent on campaigning. You have to vote, and you have to let your senator/congresscritter know that you vote and that DRM/TCPA is an important issue to you. A single handwritten letter can change a politician's stance on an issue because they're so rare.

TCPA isn't an issue? Make it an issue.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me or is anyone else struggling to grasp the various complexities of this issue? So in a nutshell, what is the consensus of the group here? Will the ability to use Linux be significantly impaired in 3-4 years, or will there be only minor inconveniences. If the latter seems the most likely future, I'll sleep better tonight. If the former, well damn - that sucks.

On a related note, what would a TCPA dominated landscape do to the ability to even learn how to program? This has been hinted at, but here's my specific concern: will the very tools to code that stuff be priced out of the range of would be self-taught programmers? I can't afford a copy of Visual Studio .Net and Windows 2K Server to run IIS on, so I write applications in PHP and host them on Apache. I can't imagine that the TCPA dev environment of the future will be any cheaper. Without the ability of ordinary consumers to open a simple text editor and write a program, the only place new programmers will be able to learn how to program is school. That doesn't always work out if your school/college/university has a lousy comp sci program or you just don't do well in school.
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carmiac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uncle_meat wrote:

That's not really true. They listen to dollars because those corporate sponsors help underwrite their campaigns. But politicians won't ignore angry voters because the bottom line is that voters get them into office, no matter how much money is spent on campaigning. You have to vote, and you have to let your senator/congresscritter know that you vote and that DRM/TCPA is an important issue to you. A single handwritten letter can change a politician's stance on an issue because they're so rare.

TCPA isn't an issue? Make it an issue.


I wish I had your faith. :)

True, politicians won't ignore angry voters, but there have to be enough angry voters. It is very easy for large corporations to get legislation passed against the will of a few informed citizens.

Case in point, the recently passed bill creating the Homeland Security Dept. Regardless of what you think of the main point of the bill, the riders thrown on it were crazy. One of them made it impossible to sue drug companies for any liability on anything they do and any product they produce if that company produces a single product that can be used in antibiowarfare, including pennicillan shots. When a few informed citizens objected, the major drug companies exerted lobbying pressure, made major campaign donations, and set up a few interviews (with reporters they hired) to make the people objecting look like crackpots. The whole issue ended up being swept under the rug. End result, it is no longer possible to seek compensation if a drug company harms you in this nation.

The money that companies throw at politicians means more to than a few angry voters because with that money a politician can hire a good ad agency/image consultant to make the majory of voters ignore those that have a clue.
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uncle_meat
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carmiac wrote:

It is very easy for large corporations to get legislation passed against the will of a few informed citizens.


*sigh* Yeah. This is one area where the web falls flat on its face. It's rare that anyone other than the already-converted visits sites that could inform them about the issues. Community sites like Slashdot are tempests in a teapot.

I keep plugging away at people to participate in the system, though, because I think the real problem isn't technology or corrupt politicians, but lack of citizen interest and involvement. A citizen who doesn't get involved in his governance isn't really a citizen, but a tourist.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uncle_meat wrote:
A citizen who doesn't get involved in his governance isn't really a citizen, but a tourist.
Hadn't thought of it that way... now to figure out how to avoid income taxes... :D
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carmiac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uncle_meat wrote:
A citizen who doesn't get involved in his governance isn't really a citizen, but a tourist.


I like that, I really like that.
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bos_mindwarp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fujitsu-Siemens is making pretty decent SPARC-architecture machines, and if I got it correctly even processors. Being an european company (Germany) where government is switching to linux (got fed up by Microsoft/NSA thingy? speculation) so maybe that's the way to go...

http://www.citypaper.com/2001-03-21/cyber.html

btw, siemens PRIMEPOWER series supposedly are more performance/buck machines then Solaris-SPARC, we got a pair at work, and they are sure nice...

oh yeah, I strongly believe that this was a Microsoft's try to bring down open-source, how could open-source applications be licenced ($$$) to run on Palladium architecture?

/mw
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bos_mindwarp wrote:
I strongly believe that this was a Microsoft's try to bring down open-source, how could open-source applications be licenced ($$$) to run on Palladium architecture?
I'm pretty sure (aka too lazy to verify) this was mentioned earlier in the thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
bos_mindwarp wrote:
I strongly believe that this was a Microsoft's try to bring down open-source, how could open-source applications be licenced ($$$) to run on Palladium architecture?
I'm pretty sure (aka too lazy to verify) this was mentioned earlier in the thread.


yep it was. guess i was lazy too...
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squanto
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carmiac wrote:
Its all about ... sense.

Sense? I don't think so, I haven't heard too many polititions speak well of any situation lately. As mentioned on /. at one time or another:
Quote:

Canada may get a large influx of the Engineer / Computer Science type _real_ soon if things like this keep happening.
And I think it is very possible that many people will leave the country for other places if the US starts to really limit what one can do with things they legally purchased.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

squanto wrote:
carmiac wrote:
Its all about ... sense.

Sense? I don't think so, I haven't heard too many polititions speak well of any situation lately. As mentioned on /. at one time or another


What I meant by that is there is always a reason for politicians actions that never have anything to do with, "They did that because they are a horrible (conservative/liberal/moderate/libertarian/green/communist/whatever."

Alco a cookie to whoever get name the origin of that quote.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

squanto wrote:
I think it is very possible that many people will leave the country for other places if the US starts to really limit what one can do with things they legally purchased.
How many "versions" of hardware will manufacturers produce? Not many I think.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpkri wrote:
I can understand their point in fighting GPL - I don't think it is good, but I can understand it. ...


I can understand why some people beat their wives, and kill their children, and torture animals, but that doesn't make it right.

would you agree ?
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taskara
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most of the internet servers around the world use linux / unix / bsd - so what will happen to these? No way these ppl would pressured to go microsoft..

perhaps palladium is a good thing.. in that perhaps it's the death of microsoft! :D

one can only dream.. 8)
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TheCoop
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how can it be the death of microsoft?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man if palladium gets a hit, and like joe sucker uses it.....
im gonna go naked and protest somewhere....
whit a penguin saying "STOP THE MADNESS FFS!" :roll:

and try to get more ppl with me. plan B is to try starting a compnay, a "gpled" company, nobody owned it! just all whom contribute. (syndicalist alike)

plan C is to move to antarthica with my box and hack joe asshole.

the minstery of love is not gonna get me! :twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nano wrote:
the minstery of love is not gonna get me! :twisted:

Oh but we have you now! :twisted:
After we are done with you, you will be our model joe sucker for everyone to see.
haha :lol: good book though ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

squanto wrote:
nano wrote:
the minstery of love is not gonna get me! :twisted:

Oh but we have you now! :twisted:
After we are done with you, you will be our model joe sucker for everyone to see.
haha :lol: good book though ;)
hehe.. yea its a good book 8)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheCoop wrote:
how can it be the death of microsoft?


just as hitler went down ...
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