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synr9
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, that was not sarcasm Vipernicus.

GNU/Linux is much faster than FreeBSD, according to all recent benchmarks. And its code is just as clean, if not cleaner, in proportion to FreeBSD's according to Coverity.
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Blood Fluke
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

synr9 wrote:
Nope, that was not sarcasm Vipernicus.

GNU/Linux is much faster than FreeBSD, according to all recent benchmarks. And its code is just as clean, if not cleaner, in proportion to FreeBSD's according to Coverity.


:!: Broken record alert. :!:

Seriously though -- have you ever used Linux NFS? There's nothing "clean" or "fast" about that.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys know that we have people working on a BSD version of Gentoo?

If you know that why anyone convince not to use BSD?

I would apreciate if our community would offer a crossfraction to BSD. That would easy the work on Linux machines where they are good and use BSD on task where it tops Linux.

Our community is not about Linux it is about Choice. So why stop anyone to use BSD if BSD is an at least as good Choice as Linux?
Or why deny that choice?

I cannot find any argument against that.

The only technical thing I can say about Gentoo is that its package Management is the best I have used! i would miss it a lot if I move away.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone should use what he/she wants. If that's gentoo, then that's fine, but so is freebsd. Everyone has the freedom to choose what they, i think one should be worried if gentoo starts loosing people to linspire. (not that i mind, they just don't know what they'll be missing :-) ) People that are bothered about loosing people to other os'es should be happy that people are using their right to choose.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madman2003 wrote:
Everyone should use what he/she wants. If that's gentoo, then that's fine, but so is freebsd. Everyone has the freedom to choose what they, i think one should be worried if gentoo starts loosing people to linspire. (not that i mind, they just don't know what they'll be missing :-) ) People that are bothered about loosing people to other os'es should be happy that people are using their right to choose.

So is there right/true and wrong/false then or is that all just defined individually by each of our personal feelings? This whole thread is arguing what _is_ better, objectively. Just sit back and enjoy it and quit trying to fuck it up. :) Yeah, you could just throw your hands up and say, "whatever.. just do whatever the hell you want..." but then what the fuck would this message board be good for? :P
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm going to give FreeBSD a test drive. About 90% of the reason I prefer Gentoo to all other Linux distros is portage, and most of the other 10% is the quality of the forums and documentation. From what I've heard, portage is derived from ports, and the FreeBSD documentation is top notch, so I'd be stupid not to have a look.

People who've been saying there's no objectively "better" OS are right, of course. For me, reliability/stability is more important than speed, so if it can handle all my hardware, I might switch.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon_irl wrote:
Well, I'm going to give FreeBSD a test drive. About 90% of the reason I prefer Gentoo to all other Linux distros is portage, and most of the other 10% is the quality of the forums and documentation. From what I've heard, portage is derived from ports, and the FreeBSD documentation is top notch, so I'd be stupid not to have a look.

People who've been saying there's no objectively "better" OS are right, of course. For me, reliability/stability is more important than speed, so if it can handle all my hardware, I might switch.
I wish it supported my damned nic properly. :evil:
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
I wish it supported my damned nic properly. :evil:


Yeah, I'm not hugely optimistic...I have a sucky Windows-only printer, an old Palm Pilot, a recent scanner, gamepads, firewire video camera, nVidia graphics, etc...all of which works beautifully on Gentoo, but it's a big ask for an OS that's not really focused on the desktop user. Something probably won't work, or won't work well enough (like audio will only be stereo instead of 5.1 surround...I have no idea how the audio on FreeBSD compares to ALSA).

Still, no harm in trying...my experimental disk (which has worn about twenty distros and every window manager imaginable over the last few months) is hungry for something different. Now if this ISO would just hurry up and arrive... ;)
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Blood Fluke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simon_irl wrote:
(like audio will only be stereo instead of 5.1 surround...I have no idea how the audio on FreeBSD compares to ALSA).

Actually, I would expect this to be the most likely problem.

The FreeBSD audio drivers expose an OSS API, and OSS is really only meant to handle 2 channels, so if the driver supports 4-channel surround, you'll end up with multiple sound devices.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. Well, thanks for saving me a bunch of wasted effort. I was already missing Gentoo, anyhow...it just didn't feel right...sitting there and watching the installer copy all those nasty binaries across without even asking me how I wanted them configured...yech!

It didn't seem as sluggish as some people have claimed...the desktop felt quite snappy (or at least, as responsive as a fat old GNOME can be)...and I guess I could have used ports to recompile stuff later, but...na...Gentoo just feels right, for some reason. The better hardware support is icing on the cake.
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tHATdUD3
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Java & Tomcat Reply with quote

I read that freebsd is awesome for a server and I have no doubts that it is not, however I recently had to build a server using FreeBSD to run a website written in JSP/Servlets. My experience with gentoo would be to emerge tomcat5 (emerging blackdown-jdk as a dependency). Unfortunately as it turned out portinstall java/jdk14 required xorg libraries for java.awt.* compatibility. I found this unacceptable. When I asked a few freebsd developers if they knew a way around it or if they could offer some help I was told "I suppose it's possible, but I don't have time to do it now." Gentoo had already provided a clean x11 free jdk seemlessly installed with a tomcat5 installation.

Another issue that I had was databases/mysql5 being in the FreeBSD tree, a package that is present in gentoo and masked unstable but installable. In freebsd there is no mentioning whatsoever of the fact that this is a RC release. Again when confronted with my issue the bsd dev's said something along the lines of we can't be the ones that determine whether something is stable or not, we don't have time... I was supposed to know that while the latest build of mysql in ports was mysql5, it is still a release candidate -- however "stable." This brought to me a great deal of confusion and feeling a loss of trust in using FreeBSD for my production server.

My vote will and more than likely always be with gentoo for reasonable reliability, excellent documentation that far surpasses freeBSD in my opinion, and a great community. I realize that I am going against the grain by asking for "gentoo" on a server, as I have gotten tons of comments and unpolite gestures for doing so. I think it is well worth the fight however and that is why I am currently in the process of trying to get the server in question changed to gentoo, fighting tooth and nail to do so. I see the day when gentoo will be prominent upon production environments and given the respect that it deserves, it will just take some time. Afterall, there is an entire team working on hardened gentoo. FreeBSD is age old from 1993 and more than likely trusted by a lot more than Gentoo, which is relative to being the new kid on the block. I can see user opinions of gentoo being afflicted by this factor alone. For me however, gentoo will always be choice number one.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lightvhawk0 wrote:
I've read so far that BSD is faster? Ok, I guess you could say that. Personally I haven't noticed a diffrence between the two. In some funky benchmarks this guy said that 2.6 was an extremely fast kernel compaired to BSD.
I use both BSD and Gentoo and I like Gentoo better because I'm lazy. IE
Code:
emerge vim
as apposed to
Code:
cd /usr/ports/editors/vim-lite <return> make install <return> make clean


Uuuh...

Code:
cd /usr/ports/editors/vim-lite && make install clean


Yeah...real tough.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even easier methonds for that, install portupgrade and you get many simple tools (portversion, portupgrade, portinstall, pkg_deinstall *with recrusive support*, etc) Also there is portsnap, which makes updating (sync'ing) a snap.

Code:
portinstall vim-lite


There is one thing I like about Portage that I find is annoying with Ports. With Portage you can just emerge a package and walk away (unless there are errors) and not have it stop everything to ask you a buildtime question. Ports does this for certain packages that can be tweaked, it's rather annoying when you want to just "set it and forget it".

Another thing I found with Freebsd is that since the base system is kept completely seperate, that when you install/upgrade/remove packages from Ports you can't mess up the OS. At least this has been my experience. I find this to be a far better way of handling packages / base system.

I also really love how Freebsd partitions my hd. I find far cleaner to have one large partition with slices instead of many partitions like how Linux/Windows does it. Sure the naming scheme is a little more complex but overall a much better design, IMHO of course.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, just stumbled over this thread, I'm going to try pcbsd (cracks knuckles) planning to setup over the weekend, on my old testing box. Anybody using it here ?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bohemian wrote:
Uuuh...

Code:
cd /usr/ports/editors/vim-lite && make install clean


Yeah...real tough.
Or even a little simpler:
Code:
# make -C /usr/ports/editors/vim-lite install clean
;)
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Blood Fluke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Okay, just stumbled over this thread, I'm going to try pcbsd (cracks knuckles) planning to setup over the weekend, on my old testing box. Anybody using it here ?

Waste of your time.

Get a regular FreeBSD install disc. PCBSD isn't fully compatible.
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CorpseOfMystic
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blood Fluke wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Okay, just stumbled over this thread, I'm going to try pcbsd (cracks knuckles) planning to setup over the weekend, on my old testing box. Anybody using it here ?

Waste of your time.

Get a regular FreeBSD install disc. PCBSD isn't fully compatible.

Or use DesktopBSD. It is fully compatible with FreeBSD's ports tree, plus it includes a very nice GUI frontend for ports.

Quote:
There is one thing I like about Portage that I find is annoying with Ports. With Portage you can just emerge a package and walk away (unless there are errors) and not have it stop everything to ask you a buildtime question. Ports does this for certain packages that can be tweaked, it's rather annoying when you want to just "set it and forget it".

make config-recursive. If you read the manpage its right there.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
make config-recursive. If you read the manpage its right there.


What do you mean? Is this for Gentoo or Freebsd? I'm not at home so I can't check any of the man pages you mentioned.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Java & Tomcat Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately as it turned out portinstall java/jdk14 required xorg libraries for java.awt.* compatibility. I found this unacceptable. When I asked a few freebsd developers if they knew a way around it or if they could offer some help I was told "I suppose it's possible, but I don't have time to do it now." Gentoo had already provided a clean x11 free jdk seemlessly installed with a tomcat5 installation.


If you found dependency on xorg libraries due to java.awt.* as unacceptable, then why didn't you use MINIMAL flag? Or do you need java.awt.* in jdk? But I never installed Tomcat :).

Quote:

Another issue that I had was databases/mysql5 being in the FreeBSD tree, a package that is present in gentoo and masked unstable but installable. In freebsd there is no mentioning whatsoever of the fact that this is a RC release. Again when confronted with my issue the bsd dev's said something along the lines of we can't be the ones that determine whether something is stable or not, we don't have time... I was supposed to know that while the latest build of mysql in ports was mysql5, it is still a release candidate -- however "stable." This brought to me a great deal of confusion and feeling a loss of trust in using FreeBSD for my production server.


Why should freebsd or.. more appropiate term will be ports system.. notify you that you are about to install "unstable" port? I see no need for that. If I want to try out new 5.0.13 mysql I will also go to see mysql.com page, where it is pretty much mentioned, that this is release candidate. Anyway for stability of 5.0.x mysql I just want to say that we are using it on production server as database for cache system of our content management system (around 10 thousand queries per minute in peaks) and it is rock stable. Running linuxthreads :).

Quote:

My vote will and more than likely always be with gentoo for reasonable reliability, excellent documentation that far surpasses freeBSD in my opinion, and a great community. I realize that I am going against the grain by asking for "gentoo" on a server, as I have gotten tons of comments and unpolite gestures for doing so. I think it is well worth the fight however and that is why I am currently in the process of trying to get the server in question changed to gentoo, fighting tooth and nail to do so. I see the day when gentoo will be prominent upon production environments and given the respect that it deserves, it will just take some time. Afterall, there is an entire team working on hardened gentoo. FreeBSD is age old from 1993 and more than likely trusted by a lot more than Gentoo, which is relative to being the new kid on the block. I can see user opinions of gentoo being afflicted by this factor alone. For me however, gentoo will always be choice number one.


FreeBSD documentation is probably better than Gentoo one, although I find gentoo docs pretty good! Community around FreeBSD is also more mature than around any linux distro, mainly because many users are just childish in their fights against Winblowz etc, and that Linux is sooo trendy these times.. but average FreeBSD user is focusing on making FreeBSD better and not in OS-wars.. but this is not relevant here. Well as for changing your FreeBSD server to Gentoo.. It will be really good move, because from your lines I feel that you are more comfortable and probably also more skilled in administration of Gentoo than FreeBSD.. :)..

Anyway for me.. I am FreeBSD user, running -CURRENT desktop and few (~10) servers with FreeBSD with various uses. And I am just giving a try to Gentoo desktop also, and I find it very amazing (considering I was last using Gentoo two years ago)..
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What do you mean? Is this for Gentoo or Freebsd? I'm not at home so I can't check any of the man pages you mentioned.

This is a ports make target. For example, if I want to install something with a lot of dependencies that will require configuration, e.g. KDE or GNOME, I go to their directory and type "make config-recursive." It then sequentially gives me every configuration screen so that I can configure them ahead of time.

man ports
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooooh! Nice tip, I'm going to try it out. Hmm, I wonder if the portupgrade tool has an option like this.

Thanks btw.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I considered several different Unix-like OS's before deciding on Gentoo. FreeBSD was the other more prevalent OS that I was looking at, and the only reason I chose Gentoo is because I know some people that use it and can help me when I run into an obstacle. Maybe I'll switch to FreeBSD after I get more literate with Unix based operating systems, but for now I am happy with Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

version 6.0 has just been released. i might have another look. i also set up a debian partition recently, although it didn't last. gentoo is my favourite distro, but it's basically unsatisfying in this one respect: i wouldn't trust it with anything really serious. it's by far the most satisfying desktop os...i don't see anything else that can be so easily customised/tuned...but despite some of the claims i've seen in these forums, there's not a snowball's chance in hell the company i work for would even consider shifting a network supporting hundreds of staff and tens of thousands of customers onto gentoo in its current state.

i understand that there is an inevitable trade-off between customisability and stability...we can't have debian-like stability without policies to standardise setups for testing (not to mention testing packages for years, so that official releases always seem boring and lacking in features next to the latest stuff). but it's unsatisfying to be using a distro that, for all its merits on the desktop, i can't advocate for in an "enterprise" setting. so i continue to be interested in freebsd, debian, and other solutions that look more scalable.

maybe some kind of "stable gentoo" will emerge from the hardened gentoo project or something similar...but at this point i can't imagine what it would look like....so i'll probably continue to be interested in the likes of freebsd. i'm not dissing gentoo...i love it...it's the best at what it does...it just doesn't do everything (not yet, anyway).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is only unstable if you make it unstable, I have a webserver that I run gentoo on and I have an uptime of 216 days and it would be longer but I had a power outage.

Now don't get me wrong, Gentoo is still a bleeding edge distro but once you know what stuff to stay away from it really makes a rock solid server.

All that being said, I love FreeBSD to, I haven't used it at home for some time, but on occasion I use it at work (rarely because it never breaks).

Perhaps I will install FreeBSD 6.0 on my old 1.3 celeron and play with it a bit
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: it's all in the seasoning Reply with quote

Hey all,
At the moment I run gentoo. xp, debian and ubuntu from the same box. I like to fiddle so after reading this thread i have found a use for that spare partition.. a bsd partition. multiple choice is good.
man
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