Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
ia64: GCC developers want to deprecate the ia64 port
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo on Alternative Architectures
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mike155
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 3699
Location: Frankfurt, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: ia64: GCC developers want to deprecate the ia64 port Reply with quote

Richard Biener wrote:
ia64 has no maintainer anymore so the following deprecates it with the goal of eliminating the port for GCC 11 if no maintainer steps up.

See: https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2019-06/msg00125.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't say the day wasn't coming... even if the architecture was kind of immune to the speculation security issues.
I suspect its instruction ordering backends is probably one of the most intricate that's not directly applicable to any other architecture. Did icc get deprecated too?
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10484
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had been meaning to build an Itanium workstation just as a platform to gain experience with a VLIW instruction set. Looks like my window of opportunity for that is closing (although parts are probably cheap right now).

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably isn't worth it at this point... I should update my ia64 box's Gentoo install one last time or something before it becomes completely obsolete...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sam_
Developer
Developer


Joined: 14 Aug 2020
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's necrobumping but I'd like to just give a quick update here (it's a quiet section, so..).

I posted a summary of the IA64 situation to the gentoo-dev mailing list last month. Help is needed but support has not yet been dropped from the toolchain, 3 years on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of disappointed with my ia64 since I haven't had graphics support for a while, AMD 2D graphics broke way back when and haven't used it since... my ia64 box has been sleeping for a while now.

Question is what I can do with the box nowadays... (2U, Dual 1.3GHz Madison 4GB RAM, RAID1 72GB disk)
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?


Last edited by eccerr0r on Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zucca
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 2583
Location: Rasi, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity... does llvm have support for ia64 "output"? Could it solve some of the upcoming problems?
_________________
..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels no longer reside on freenode but instead on Libera.Chat.
[Quick IRC quide]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heard they dropped or was thinking about dropping ia64 too...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zucca
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 2583
Location: Rasi, Finland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm not a compiler developer, but shouldn't it be quite easy to maintain ia64 support as the architecture will not evolve anymore..?
I guess the rest of the toolchain has something to do with it.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels no longer reside on freenode but instead on Libera.Chat.
[Quick IRC quide]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 18837

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that while the architecture will not evolve further, the shared code used by multiple architectures will continue to change. Changes in the core code may require changes in the architecture-specific backends, to handle updated data structures, call ordering rules, etc. Since IA64 is abandoned at the hardware level, it is difficult and time-consuming for developers to verify that they did not break the ia64 backend when they update it as part of a change to core code. If they don't update it, there's a good chance they will render it impossible to compile. If they do update it, they may have code that compiles, but produces nonsensical results when used.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same goes for sparc, hppa, alpha, ppc, ...?
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 18837

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on how readily a developer can buy, rent, or borrow access to those, yes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, even if you can buy, rent, or borrow these...all these architectures likely will not evolve further either...

Hmm... maybe I should see if my ia64 box will run latest or not anymore including X11...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 18837

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, but if developers cannot get access to try code on those machines, then their only choices are to declare the architecture unsupported (and subject to break at any time with no notice) or to refrain from ever touching core code that requires a change in the architecture-specific code of an obsolete architecture. For architectures where they can test, either personally or by assuming that a regularly active community member will do so, they can have some confidence that a given release does not have a serious unknown regression.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What version of gcc is being used to build ia64 at the moment... seems there are no stable versions of gcc at all currently?
I'm sort of resource constrained and have completely powered off my ia64 box (as in unplugged; I used to keep it up on LOM but not anymore as the LOM uses as much power as a laptop fully turned on) and wonder what could be done to do more ia64 arch testing on my machine...

I suspect that making sure cross compiling with my amd64 boxes would be part of the solution, but I haven't updated crossdev on my amd64 boxes since gcc-4.7.4 -- the version of gcc on my ia64 box. Which means I probably need to reinstall the box from a fresh stage3 of something more recent, trying to upgrade this box from its current state is probably not worth the effort...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sam_
Developer
Developer


Joined: 14 Aug 2020
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Well, I'm not a compiler developer, but shouldn't it be quite easy to maintain ia64 support as the architecture will not evolve anymore..?
I guess the rest of the toolchain has something to do with it.


This is of course true (it's not evolving anymore) but a fair part of why IA64 died is that the toolchain support never matured to fully take advantage of the ISA's capabilities. It's also not simple and the bugs are often a bit weird. It's not very similar to other arches which means it often doesn't benefit from other drive-by fixes too.

So, it's true, and this logic maybe applies a bit more to other arches, but the problem is, IA64 isn't starting from a good, well-maintained state :(

eccerr0r wrote:
Same goes for sparc, hppa, alpha, ppc, ...?



  • sparc is in an interesting situation because the kernel support seems like it could do with a bit more love, but we actually know there's a bunch of unimplemented cool stuff like better power management which Solaris (and possibly Oracle's Linuxes had?). It has somewhat of an hobbyist following but a lot of SPARC fans actually prefer to use Solaris. But the toolchain benefits, even if the kernel doesn't so much, from this use.

  • hppa is rather well-maintained, surprisingly, although does not have 64-bit userland yet (does have 64-bit kernel support though). Needs toolchain support for that but it's not dead at all. I recently got a C8000 and I've been genuinely surprised by how alive the community is and how progress is going. Don't count PARISC out! ;)

  • alpha is quite quiet but it's been around longer. The main Gentoo developer interested in alpha (mattst88) is also the kernel maintainer. I think there's some multiprocessing bug in the kernel which makes using at least his alpha system a pain atm though (an unfortunate part about some of this is that such bugs often aren't $ARCH specific, but are just exposed there because of slower/odd hardware or quirks, so you can't easily narrow down by checking $ARCH specific changes).

  • ppc has a decent enthusiast following (ppc64 anyway, in the form of e.g. RCS) and I think it's pretty common to see people testing it out in the wild. It's easily the "most popular fringe arch".


eccerr0r wrote:
What version of gcc is being used to build ia64 at the moment... seems there are no stable versions of gcc at all currently?
I'm sort of resource constrained and have completely powered off my ia64 box (as in unplugged; I used to keep it up on LOM but not anymore as the LOM uses as much power as a laptop fully turned on) and wonder what could be done to do more ia64 arch testing on my machine...

I suspect that making sure cross compiling with my amd64 boxes would be part of the solution, but I haven't updated crossdev on my amd64 boxes since gcc-4.7.4 -- the version of gcc on my ia64 box. Which means I probably need to reinstall the box from a fresh stage3 of something more recent, trying to upgrade this box from its current state is probably not worth the effort...


IA64 lost stable keywords in Gentoo due to lack of interest and the time it was consuming. Could always come back with sufficient interest. As far as I'm aware, GCC 11 works fine still.

Just to reiterate on what I said in the ML post, really, more help is really welcome with all of these in any sense, including bug reports, simply telling us you're using them, and package testing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 8837
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At one time my ia64 box was the sole machine I owned that had 4GB RAM, but now that has changed...
Was kind of dismayed that things were breaking on it little by little... first Firefox was dropped (probably due to SSE2 of course) and then X11 stopped working. I always could boot.

So is gcc-11 what's in the current stage3? Will need to crossdev it on my "bigger" boxes even if the ia64 box is physically biggest and heaviest, no way I can move it around without a hand truck (it's a brick 2U)...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon FirePro V3900/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo on Alternative Architectures All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum