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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:01 am Post subject: wayland stability and application compatibility |
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Dear Gentooers,
Is there some place where good folks have documented some sort of stability and application compatibility issues with wayland plasma desktop?
I have been thinking about transitioning to wayland on my desktop (amdgpu) but would love to see what is already reported to be broken. For example, if vscode does not work, I am toast!
Thanks,
devsk |
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turtles Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1657
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:23 am Post subject: |
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I've looked into switching in the past,and something about Wayland reminds me of IPV6
both are
- Supposed to replace something legacy, some outdated programing, that's really bad code.
- 100% not backwards compatible, so any commercial support will be slow.
- There are really cool talks at conferences why we all need to switch.
- And people say the transition is a few years away, and always will be.
The rationale for Wayland was mobile and tablet device development but it seems to me SurfaceFlinger has a better chance of taking over before Wayland does.
In the mean time x11-xorg and IPV4 keep chugging away. _________________ Donate to Gentoo |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:32 am Post subject: |
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turtles wrote: | I've looked into switching in the past,and something about Wayland reminds me of IPV6
both are
- Supposed to replace something legacy, some outdated programing, that's really bad code.
- 100% not backwards compatible, so any commercial support will be slow.
- There are really cool talks at conferences why we all need to switch.
- And people say the transition is a few years away, and always will be.
The rationale for Wayland was mobile and tablet device development but it seems to me SurfaceFlinger has a better chance of taking over before Wayland does.
In the mean time x11-xorg and IPV4 keep chugging away. |
I think wayland has a leg up on IPV6.... |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I think these showstoppers were enough to persuade me to abandon this idea for now. I will try in another year or so.
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
and
https://hansdegoede.livejournal.com/21944.html
I definitely need KDE session restore. That's a big showstopper right there!
I do run graphical tools as root sometimes because I need to e.g. I need to diff and merge a system file, my tool of choice is always kdiff3 (it has never failed me). |
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turtles Veteran
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1657
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting thanks for posting.
Yeah with more and more 'closed source' apps getting run on Linux desktops the security threat is real.
I have been meaning to try out dockercast:
https://github.com/dockercask/dockercask
Or something like it.
I am not sure if there is anything Gentoo specific. _________________ Donate to Gentoo |
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stef999 n00b
Joined: 12 Sep 2021 Posts: 4
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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turtles wrote: | I've looked into switching in the past,and something about Wayland reminds me of IPV6
both are
- Supposed to replace something legacy, some outdated programing, that's really bad code.
- 100% not backwards compatible, so any commercial support will be slow.
- There are really cool talks at conferences why we all need to switch.
- And people say the transition is a few years away, and always will be.
The rationale for Wayland was mobile and tablet device development but it seems to me SurfaceFlinger has a better chance of taking over before Wayland does.
In the mean time x11-xorg and IPV4 keep chugging away. |
Funny (and as well true in my experience), you made my day, thx |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:52 am Post subject: |
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turtles wrote: | Interesting thanks for posting.
Yeah with more and more 'closed source' apps getting run on Linux desktops the security threat is real.
I have been meaning to try out dockercast:
https://github.com/dockercask/dockercask
Or something like it.
I am not sure if there is anything Gentoo specific. | Very interesting! Thanks for that link!
I am surprised that more people don't have comments here. Either nobody bothers with wayland or people running it are really happy. I would like to know how people are happy with it despite very fundamental showstoppers on desktop, in case its the latter.
Note that I have no religious allegiance to X11 or wayland, or anything for that matter.... |
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dmpogo Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 3267 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:37 am Post subject: |
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devsk wrote: |
I am surprised that more people don't have comments here. Either nobody bothers with wayland or people running it are really happy. I would like to know how people are happy with it despite very fundamental showstoppers on desktop, in case its the latter.
Note that I have no religious allegiance to X11 or wayland, or anything for that matter.... |
I do not comment since I do have religious allegiance to X11 |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: |
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dmpogo wrote: | devsk wrote: |
I am surprised that more people don't have comments here. Either nobody bothers with wayland or people running it are really happy. I would like to know how people are happy with it despite very fundamental showstoppers on desktop, in case its the latter.
Note that I have no religious allegiance to X11 or wayland, or anything for that matter.... |
I do not comment since I do have religious allegiance to X11 | |
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davydm n00b
Joined: 06 Jan 2017 Posts: 73
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, too many showstoppers at this time. The progress seems very slow but hopefully, KDE is pushing hard for them to be resolved in 2022 roadmap for plasma. |
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Goverp Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2007
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I've just tried wayland again; it seemed a lot better at first - to the extent that I had to check if it was actually wayland and not X! However, zoom is still broken. kmail windows now "twitch" rather than fail to appear. But the biggest problem was that KDE "Switch to new user", which goes via sddm (X11 only AFAIK), is broken and locks me out of both the intended new user session AND the existing one. So, back to X for me at the moment. _________________ Greybeard |
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Perfect Gentleman Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2014 Posts: 1249
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using KDE Wayland session like more than for a year. |
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Anon-E-moose Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6098 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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sddm does have problems with wayland (though they're being worked out) but since it was originally based on X11, it still is its primary focus, wayland is an addon at the moment. Having said that they have 19.0 version out that might improve things (I don't use sddm)
Typically one would use greetd with one of the greeters for a better wayland experience, though I'm not sure how well they interface with straight X11.
Afa kde, that's a work in progress re. the wayland part of it. Each release, major or point fixes some problems (but they got lots of them )
Wayland is also a work in progress, much like X11 was in the late 90's/early 2000's.
As far as being default vs X11, that depends on the distro, and major vendors gnome/kde allow you to go either way, usually with env variables. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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mv Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6747
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I have no problem with wayland so far.
However, I use wayfire (not kde), no zoom (though meet w/ google-chrome [in wayland mode] and discord-bin), and meanwhile I have no longer any machines with nvidia.
I do use sddm-0.18.1, however, and have no problems logging in and out.
OTOH, I have not tried this with systemd yet (though I use systemd instead of elogind since I want to be able to switch init systems if necessary), and sddm is the only package compiled with pam support, so I guess that for most things user sessions are not honored.
Only irritating thing concerning user sessions is that pipewire only works for the logged-in user (I know that this is intentional, but it is rubbish anyway if you do not want that misfeature.) Anyway, I guess that the latter has nothing to do with wayland. |
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Goverp Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2007
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Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Slightly necroposting, but,
as of my systems latest update to KDE et al, specifically plasma-5.24.4, suddenly Wayland looks useable. Windows open where they should, icons have the right size. I'm going to leave it as my default for a while to see if there are any stability problems. _________________ Greybeard |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Goverp wrote: | Slightly necroposting, but,
as of my systems latest update to KDE et al, specifically plasma-5.24.4, suddenly Wayland looks useable. Windows open where they should, icons have the right size. I'm going to leave it as my default for a while to see if there are any stability problems. | does the desktop mgmt work? e.g. if I open firefox, have one window in one desktop and 2nd in 2nd desktop, I exit and restart firefox, do all windows show up in the current desktop or do they show up in their respective desktops before exit & restart?
How about after logging out and logging back in? |
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Goverp Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2007
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Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 8:36 am Post subject: |
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I assume you mean activities rather than desktops.
I tried logging out with firefoxes open on different activities; on logging on again, they're all in "default", but it was trivial (though an inconvenience that needs fixing) to move them back where they belong.
Having said the icons were the right size, that was my desktop. They're wrong - or at least different to X - on my laptop they're too small by about 15%. Not sure which is right; I need to get a ruler and calculate DPI and so forth! I think it's Wayland still miscalculating on the laptop. _________________ Greybeard |
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logrusx Veteran
Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Posts: 1533
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Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Goverp wrote: |
Having said the icons were the right size, that was my desktop. They're wrong - or at least different to X - on my laptop they're too small by about 15%. Not sure which is right; I need to get a ruler and calculate DPI and so forth! I think it's Wayland still miscalculating on the laptop. |
I'm not sure how it's in KDE but I'm sure there's such setting like in Gnome - font scaling. Increase your fonts factor to 1.10-1.20. This usually scales everything, though some applications get blurred on higher resolution displays as they are not properly Wayland aware and their raster ouput is resized.
Regards,
Georgi |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8936
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Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Font scaling scales fonts, nothing else. KDE Plasma has "Global Scale" in Systemsettings/Display Configuration. |
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Goverp Advocate
Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 2007
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Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I found the display scaling thing. At first sight it appears to work. However, I found a more serious issue. I opened a second session with "Switch user". That worked fine until I made the mistake of trying to switch back using Ctl+Alt+F7. That gave a black screen with an X cursor, both there and back on Ctl+Alt+F8, so I couldn't get back in without a reboot. Back to Xorg! _________________ Greybeard |
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logrusx Veteran
Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Posts: 1533
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: |
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asturm wrote: | Font scaling scales fonts, nothing else. KDE Plasma has "Global Scale" in Systemsettings/Display Configuration. |
That's partially correct. While I don't use icons and don't care, almost everything else depends on the font size including UI elements. Of course there are some applications which disregards global font scaling and you can't do anything about that, but they are a minority.
For example chromium has become Wayland aware since 95 or 96, but it still hasn't gotten everything right, that's why I run it in XWayland mode.
Regards,
Georgi |
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devsk Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 2995 Location: Bay Area, CA
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 8:24 am Post subject: |
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logrusx wrote: | asturm wrote: | Font scaling scales fonts, nothing else. KDE Plasma has "Global Scale" in Systemsettings/Display Configuration. |
That's partially correct. While I don't use icons and don't care, almost everything else depends on the font size including UI elements. Of course there are some applications which disregards global font scaling and you can't do anything about that, but they are a minority.
For example chromium has become Wayland aware since 95 or 96, but it still hasn't gotten everything right, that's why I run it in XWayland mode.
Regards,
Georgi | How do you run it without XWayland in KDE? KDE Plasma seems to automatically start it with XWayland. |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8936
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: |
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logrusx wrote: | That's partially correct. While I don't use icons and don't care, ... |
...that's vital information when you claim "This usually scales everything". Most people will be looking at size-mismatched icons and mouse cursor then. |
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logrusx Veteran
Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Posts: 1533
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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asturm wrote: | logrusx wrote: | That's partially correct. While I don't use icons and don't care, ... |
...that's vital information when you claim "This usually scales everything". Most people will be looking at size-mismatched icons and mouse cursor then. |
Icons in the applications menu are of normal size, so I guess I use icons after all. Mouse cursor is another story, it needs to be manually enlarged, usually not a big deal.
devsk wrote: | How do you run it without XWayland in KDE? KDE Plasma seems to automatically start it with XWayland. |
You mean how do I run it in Wayland mode? There are different options but I think nowadays you need to manually disable wayland(enabled by default if the DE runs in wayland mode) in /etc/chromium/default or passing command line options to the binary or putting them into the same /etc/chromium/default afar.
Regards,
Georgi |
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