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RayOfLight
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Plasma on X or on Wayland? Reply with quote

Today I've tried running plasma on wayland and was surprised to see it start and "work" without tuning anything.

It only passed 2h until I noticed my keyboard typematic repeat rate was gone and I could not scroll with the cursor keys, so no scrolling in nano, for example. (went to keyboard settings, it did not help, went to a tty, it works there, just not on wayland)

The global shortcuts I had set to move windows all are ignored and I see no solution in sight, also, I did not touch anything of that. (this seems more of the kwin_wayland implementation, but whatever)

Reverted back to the X11 login, sigh.

Fuck this piece of unusable software (for me), see you in another year, maybe you can learn to not destroy the most basic things of a shell. We have 12 years of the project and I feel those are the most basic common used things.

What are your experiences? What are you running?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using Openbox and about a dozen other X tools held together with shell scripts. This kind of setup is literally made impossible by design in Wayland, so I'm unlikely to switch.
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PlatinumTrinity
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still use X11. Wayland doesn't work for me yet and every time I report bugs they tell me some variation of
Quote:
Wayland is just a standard it's up to <x> software to implement it!


They basically just push all the hard work downstream then claim it's ready to replace all use cases for X11. Anyone that disagrees is not worth listening to. I have zero faith in it as a project, X11 still just works.
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RayOfLight
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/thread
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toralf
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayOfLight wrote:
/thread
pls add a [solved] to the title if you think it is appropriate.
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PlatinumTrinity
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayOfLight wrote:
/thread


I would like to keep discussing it. I've tried to move to Wayland a couple of times on hardware that will run it but I keep coming back to X11 for a variety of reasons. In my experience the only place wayland works well is on Fedora with Gnome. They do not seem to care about other distros or desktop environments. I find a similar attitude as I do with systemd when it comes to wayland. They push the idea that their way is better and anyone that doesn't agree isn't worth their time. I see a lot of of them all over the web with the same scripted replies.

The most common thing I see them post when talking about X11 is something like;

Quote:
X is not secure and is no longer maintained.


They never mention that anyone could step up to maintain it and Red Hat just pulled their main guy off the X project. They never mention that there aren't any outstanding bug reports for security.

Then they will go on to give examples like X being a system wide key logger. When I ask why they aren't running sensitive stuff inside of a sandbox they never have an answer. They claim wayland doesn't suffer from the same problem even though it would be trivial to do it. Plus anyone with that type of access to a system would have several other ways to exploit it or log all keystrokes.

Wayland, Gnome and systemd are like a religion. If you don't agree with what they're doing they will not listen to you. They claim this is the only true way to do the desktop on Linux. This is why I originally came to gentoo because I got tired of being forced into using this stuff. At least on gentoo I have the option and there is an effort to not make wayland, systemd, and gnome hard dependencies.

I do not think wayland is the future especially after 10+ years of it being in such a bad state. I will continue to use X until something better comes along. I feel the same way about systemd but feel it's even worse. I do not understand why someone running it would be worried about X being a security hole when they have such a massive bit of unaudited code running as PID1. I see wayland, systemd, and Gnome 3 as an attempt to redefine what Linux is and cease control of the community. They're doing a pretty decent job considering how many mainstream distros have made those the defaults and refuse to support anyone that doesn't want to run them.
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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never even considered wayland.
I think one of the coolest tricks in X11 is network transparency, like X-forwarding with ssh. As far as i know that's impossible with wayland, so i'll have to stick with X11 (which is fine by me).
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Dorsai!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PlatinumTrinity wrote:
RayOfLight wrote:
/thread

They never mention that there aren't any outstanding bug reports for security.


I don't think exploits are what they have in mind when they are talking about X11 being insecure. It's more problems with the general design.

On X11 there is no real separation possible between individual programs. Every program can access the image of the entire desktop and every program can listen to input for the entire desktop. Also things like the clipboard are shared without any control. This doesn't sound like a problem when you only run trusted open source software, but when you consider exploits and information leaks in browsers or basically any software, it becomes a huge privacy issue.

On wayland the flow of information is much more controlled, on a need to know basis over which the compositor decides. To me that alone is worth the tradeoff for the removal of network transparency.

That being said, I myself am still on X11 for the time being. I believe wayland (or rather the software ecosystem around it) might still need more than a few years yet to mature before it is ready as a daily driver.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorsai! wrote:
[Also things like the clipboard are shared without any control. .


And that is the greatest thing since the sliced bread :)

I have used X11 for nearly thirty years ( talk about forward looking design), and never had security issues, I am pretty sure none will come in my environment in what is left.

The problem is that the X11 use model is collection of networked computers, while wayland use model is basically a tablet. Yes, X11 maybe an overkill, and may have disadvantages on tablet, but overall I think wayland is betting on the wrong horse.
I have strong suspicion that in 30 years people will not remember what it was. It will be something that allows to seemlessly display data produced and stored around the world, rendered locally in locally hardware optimised way
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Goverp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble is, it's not just plasma on Wayland, it's also (if you use it) wine and steam on Wayland, and even if plasma works acceptably, AFAIK, that's not nearly true for wine and its friends
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will get there.
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RayOfLight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As this topic seems active, I'll have to chime in another opinion of mine.

I tried wayland on my gentoo laptop maybe a year ago, and I didn't go as far as in the OP, it was funny, there was no more xorg.conf... but I had to use libinput with my elantech touchpad.

I thought to myself... no big deal, I just switch to the recommended method and check out the promising new wayland features to come... Oh boy.

I can't recall it 100%, but moving the cursor, or scrolling, or clicking (it was a "clickpad-trackpad") with a finger left on it was a pain, my standard very confortable hand position was now wrong and the cursor was misbehaving.

I went to the Plasma control panel, to the settings, it was an empty desert. no way of adjusting this, I checked out some forums, not many posts AFAICR...

Welp, I turned back to X11... My hand thanked me.


Small changes, big consequences. I still don't know how hard is to "port" one design on a platform to another platform and how they keep making themselves notice on such a (what is to me) such a basic level.

I'm no pro developer so maybe I'm asking too much, but until then... long live X11.
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