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SoapSA
Developer
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| fedeliallalinea wrote: |
I don't like to get into these conversations, but I don't see any personal attack to anyone.
cokey simply tell that SoapSA and sam_ should explain themselves better.
Based on your words if I say that zlogene made a report this is a personal attack only just because I'm referring to your nickname?
Maybe my bad English doesn't allow me to see some subtle stuff. |
Notice how the forum mods complained that participants on the ML thread weren't using the correct avenues to escalate problematic posts. We have reported problematic posts and are now hair-splitting whether "the bitches on the View" is misogynist. Ironically, the guiding principle is if it's not something you'd say to your mother, it's not appropriate to post here, which seems to have been lost some years ago, as you saw in the previous post. |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8956
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| fedeliallalinea wrote: |
I don't like to get into these conversations, but I don't see any personal attack to anyone. |
I'd love to give you my opinion here, but I just got a 2-week ban for an 'irresponsible' post. |
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fedeliallalinea
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 30996
Location: here
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| SoapSA wrote: | | Notice how the forum mods complained that participants on the ML thread weren't using the correct avenues to escalate problematic posts. We have reported problematic posts and are now hair-splitting whether "the bitches on the View" is misogynist. Ironically, the guiding principle is if it's not something you'd say to your mother, it's not appropriate to post here, which seems to have been lost some years ago, as you saw in the previous post. |
I don't want to get into this discussion, my English doesn't allow me to make up my mind on the matter, I just wanted to point out that there is no violation in that report.
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fedeliallalinea
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Joined: 08 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | I'd love to give you my opinion here, but I just got a 2-week ban for an 'irresponsible' post. |
You can send me a PM.
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mrbassie
l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 795
Location: over here
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| SoapSA wrote: | | fedeliallalinea wrote: | | mrbassie wrote: |
That's retarded. |
I consider this a personal attack. |
I agree, and that's the baseline level of toxicity we're really dealing with here. |
"Toxicity"? I consider that a personal attack. |
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Morality124
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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If that's an attack then I guess a stiff breeze is a physical assault. However, if that's the baseline, then I'll adjust my discourse to a level to match the "baseline" that the devs desire...
@Asturm, I just want to acknowledge that you are a VERRRRRRRRY SMAAAAAAAART person that packages Plasma ebuilds. You are such a GOOD and powerful person and we all respect you and you are brave and empowered. Desultory hurt your feelings and that is a very problematic outcome, as feelings can hurt. Please, dear brave developer, continuing providing us with those special KDE-branded packages *bow**bow*.
@MGorny, your acct- packages are very very creative and cool! You always come up with the best ideas, and developers that consider ideas over implementation are very very special and brave to speak up. I would like to thank you, dear to my heart, for my script nuke-acct-$#!+.sh would not have been needed without your change. Creative people stimulate creativity in others, what a fun place to be! I would give you all the participation accolades on Earth. Your existence pushes our world forward to a better place.
I would give hugs and kisses, but as we know from FreeBSD virtual hugs and kisses are non-consensual, so instead...
virtual fingersnaps
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OTW 2.0
"Put your message in a modem and throw it in the cyber sea." |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the problem is that they do speak to everyone this way privately, and due to a lawless upbringing they now have a god complex and think themselves entitled to carry on that way in public. Writing rules that rely on metaphors assuming the reader comes from a stable family (or is at least educated enough to know what one looks like), and will ever mature beyond schoolchild-level insults and trying to rules-lawyer their way out of consequences, is never going to work on a crowd that draws from shitholes like 4chan.
This is a malady I assume the CoC was supposed to cure, but the people who are supposed to levy consequences for breaking it have thus far been complete doormats. The unmoderated turd-flinging going on in this thread from OTW autonomous zone defenders being a prime example. |
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cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
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cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Please explain where saying their actions are embarrassing is a personal attack. Firstly, I'm not attacking anyone personally, Secondly, their actions weren't motivated by altruism for Gentoo otherwise they would have done it long before the bug and discussion on the list, therefore the only reason they had was to hasten an agenda of their own which is not how developers should be acting. Developers "Posting/participating only to incite drama or negativity" is a violation of the CoC and therefore embarrassing to Gentoo. Rationally, something that is embarrassing to Gentoo should be embarrassing to them as it is their actions that have created it.
Add unfounded accusations and wasting mods/admins time to that as well
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Chiitoo
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2595
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| SoapSA wrote: | | fedeliallalinea wrote: |
I don't like to get into these conversations, but I don't see any personal attack to anyone.
cokey simply tell that SoapSA and sam_ should explain themselves better.
Based on your words if I say that zlogene made a report this is a personal attack only just because I'm referring to your nickname?
Maybe my bad English doesn't allow me to see some subtle stuff. |
Notice how the forum mods complained that participants on the ML thread weren't using the correct avenues to escalate problematic posts. We have reported problematic posts and are now hair-splitting whether "the bitches on the View" is misogynist. Ironically, the guiding principle is if it's not something you'd say to your mother, it's not appropriate to post here, which seems to have been lost some years ago, as you saw in the previous post. |
As I wrote elsewhere a few times now, while there may have been some good intentions there, the timing was very poor in my opinion. The fate of Off the Wall was pretty much decided already at that point, and reporting past posts would only serve as creating more work where it serves no purpose (at least not in a positive way that I can think of).
The timing doesn't change the fact that some people obviously see words less bad than others, and that context matters more. Additionally, over the years, it was an accepted fact here that Off the Wall had more lax-like moderation, so people were used to it (or that's how it always seemed to me; I never really participated, and left the area to others to handle). Now that it has been decided that it needs to change, it should happen via a new area, with new rules, so people can adjust. I don't believe that acting retrospectively on things that used to be acceptable would be the correct thing to do, unless it's something more serious-like (especially when said area is going away either way).
In addition to this reply, I've left some comments in reports that still had none from others.
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8956
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Chiitoo wrote: | | As I wrote elsewhere a few times now, while there may have been some good intentions there, the timing was very poor in my opinion. The fate of Off the Wall was pretty much decided already at that point, and reporting past posts would only serve as creating more work where it serves no purpose (at least not in a positive way that I can think of). |
fwiw, the way I understood the reports was they were a result of the insistence of moderators [in gentoo-project thread] that they would only see the problem with OTW through the lens of reports following 'the process', and as Neddy correctly understood, did not necessarily require individual action when OTW was already going to be closed anyway. Not per-post, anyway, regarding the reported users - make of it what you will. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | fwiw, the way I understood the reports was they were a result of the insistence of moderators [in gentoo-project thread] that they would only see the problem with OTW through the lens of reports following 'the process', and as Neddy correctly understood, did not necessarily require individual action when OTW was already going to be closed anyway. Not per-post, anyway, regarding the reported users - make of it what you will. |
I've read that whole thread and the gish-gallop looked like an intentional attempt to provoke exactly this kind of aggravated reaction, so that the tribe could propagandise it to themselves as an attack from outsiders. Notably, the claims that reports would be acted on responsibly have been followed up with a deafening silence instead. No attempt whatsoever has been made to Do Better in the past two years.
But it's all moot now like you said. Ultimately the only ones with power are the ones who control the server's power cord. |
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Chiitoo
Administrator
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2595
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Chiitoo wrote: | | As I wrote elsewhere a few times now, while there may have been some good intentions there, the timing was very poor in my opinion. The fate of Off the Wall was pretty much decided already at that point, and reporting past posts would only serve as creating more work where it serves no purpose (at least not in a positive way that I can think of). |
fwiw, the way I understood the reports was they were a result of the insistence of moderators [in gentoo-project thread] that they would only see the problem with OTW through the lens of reports following 'the process', and as Neddy correctly understood, did not necessarily require individual action when OTW was already going to be closed anyway. Not per-post, anyway, regarding the reported users - make of it what you will. |
Yes, I got it that way too. My point was that it was a little late for it now.
| Ant P. wrote: | | asturm wrote: | | fwiw, the way I understood the reports was they were a result of the insistence of moderators [in gentoo-project thread] that they would only see the problem with OTW through the lens of reports following 'the process', and as Neddy correctly understood, did not necessarily require individual action when OTW was already going to be closed anyway. Not per-post, anyway, regarding the reported users - make of it what you will. |
I've read that whole thread and the gish-gallop looked like an intentional attempt to provoke exactly this kind of aggravated reaction, so that the tribe could propagandise it to themselves as an attack from outsiders. Notably, the claims that reports would be acted on responsibly have been followed up with a deafening silence instead. No attempt whatsoever has been made to Do Better in the past two years.
But it's all moot now like you said. Ultimately the only ones with power are the ones who control the server's power cord. |
That certainly was not my intention, and I highly doubt it was the intention of anyone else from the forums team.
It is unfortunate that you feel we've been doing nothing during the past two years, while we indeed have been trying to get the upgrade done, which should have brought some changes that would likely have prevented at least some of what is going on today. We didn't realise we were in such a rush (and indeed, the upgrade did get delayed a lot because life).
Additionally, I (and probably everyone else in the team) have been super de-motivated to do anything Gentoo related due to all of this, and have other things going on outside the computer world on top of that, which might explain most of the "deafening silence".
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Chiitoo wrote: | | Additionally, I (and probably everyone else in the team) have been super de-motivated to do anything Gentoo related due to all of this |
I, for one, won't/can't blame any of you for feeling that way.
I've been in a similar situation, and quite frankly it sucks.
I think that the mods/admins have done a good job.
I just fear that this won't be the last interference in how the forum is handled/run.
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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mike155
Advocate
Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 4438
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think that the mods/admins have done a good job. |
Absolutely! Thanks for your work! Please do continue your great work, even if it's sometimes frustrating. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mike155 wrote: | | Quote: | | I think that the mods/admins have done a good job. |
Absolutely! Thanks for your work! Please do continue your great work, even if it's sometimes frustrating. |
Let me echo it too, with an extra thumbs up to Desultory for his advocacy, particularly with how dismissed he was for it...
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openrc-0.17, ~vanilla-sources, ~nvidia-drivers, ~gcc |
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Morality124
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | The unmoderated turd-flinging going on in this thread from OTW autonomous zone defenders being a prime example. |
Completely unproductive and unnecessary political event allusion. Once again Pot Kettle Black.
By all means make all the metaphors you want, but do note it's hypocritical to condemn others for that which you engage in the very same post. Your entire post is exactly what you yourself are complaining about.
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OTW 2.0
"Put your message in a modem and throw it in the cyber sea." |
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ian.au
Guru
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 598
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mike155 wrote: | | Quote: | | I think that the mods/admins have done a good job. |
Absolutely! Thanks for your work! Please do continue your great work, even if it's sometimes frustrating. |
++ The very people best placed to gently correct the course of OTW were sidelined, and may be lost to the community as a result.
That's disappointing and was completely unnecessary / avoidable imo. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Morality124 wrote: | | By all means make all the metaphors you want, |
I am not using metaphors. I'm telling it as it is, and like so many of your emotionally fragile ilk you are terminally offended that someone can disregard the warped narrative of persecution and DARVO you have going and cut straight to the truth of it all.
Facts don't care about your feelings, and neither do I care about playing your rigged game of words. |
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Morality124
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | Morality124 wrote: | | By all means make all the metaphors you want, |
I am not using metaphors. I'm telling it as it is, and like so many of your emotionally fragile ilk you are terminally offended that someone can disregard the warped narrative of persecution and DARVO you have going and cut straight to the truth of it all.
Facts don't care about your feelings, and neither do I care about playing your rigged game of words. |
I'm not terminally offended, I'm just saying you're a hypocrite - that is an apparent observation. You think we're covered in shit and will try to prove it by covering yourself in shit. Well if that's the hill you want to die on, bathe in hypocrisy at your own peril. It reminds me of the Netflix film Cuties trying to teach a lesson that graphic sexual exploitation of children is bad by facilitating, filming, and broadcasting graphic sexual exploitation of children. I'm just pointing out that you aren't living up to the standards you dictate for us. Like I said, you can use all the hyperbolic metaphors or "blatant truth" you want, but to use it in a diatribe against those whose perceived hyperbole you dislike is... ill-advised.
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OTW 2.0
"Put your message in a modem and throw it in the cyber sea." |
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mrbassie
l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 795
Location: over here
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | Morality124 wrote: | | By all means make all the metaphors you want, |
I am not using metaphors. I'm telling it as it is, and like so many of your emotionally fragile ilk you are terminally offended that someone can disregard the warped narrative of persecution and DARVO you have going and cut straight to the truth of it all.
Facts don't care about your feelings, and neither do I care about playing your rigged game of words. |
Accusing other users of willful emotional abuse without citing some example is a bit extreme. Given that this is the reports topic, either support your claims or consider yourself formally warned, as without evidence to support it that claim would constitute abusive posting in itself.
This topic is specifically for the presentation to and dispensation of reports to the forum moderators. It is located in the feedback section, not Off the Wall, and is thus subject to all of the forum rules to their full extent while being the most moderator read topic on the forum. Act like it, all of you, developers explicitly included. |
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cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| mike155 wrote: | | Quote: | | I think that the mods/admins have done a good job. |
Absolutely! Thanks for your work! Please do continue your great work, even if it's sometimes frustrating. |
++ It must be a thankless job
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8956
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: |
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User: Anon-E-moose
Topic: Where did /usr/portage/distfiles go?
Post: post 8547409
Reason: Irresponsible post in a support forum.
[I disagree. Anon-E-moose was stating his configuration and describing how he kept it working, and implicit in that is the statement that "and it works well for me despite not being the default." I would look ill upon such a post if it were the very first response in a thread seeking help to implement the change, since that would remove it from the unanswered post list. However, the actual first post in the thread directly answered OP's question, and followups indicate the OP was satisfied with the answer. I can believe that at that point in the thread, Anon-E-moose would expect, whether or not rightly, that the OP might appreciate Anon-E-moose's post for the affirmation that changing is not mandatory. To me, that means Anon-E-moose posted in good faith, and was not acting irresponsibly. -Hu]
Thanks, Hu, for taking the time. I see the initial wording has slightly changed after my report - it is not worth to pursue further.
Last edited by asturm on Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8956
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: |
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User: krinn
Topic: Default 'sys-fs/eudev' for New Installs
Post: post 8490574
Reason: Irresponsible post in a poll thread.
[Irresponsible? No. I would agree with an allegation that the "systemd rats devs" (while slightly confusing) is not a good choice of phrasing, but I can see the argument:
- systemd developers dislike the existence of eudev
- The author (krinn) thinks they dislike eudev because it interferes with their control of udev
- krinn thinks it is good that they do not exclusively control udev
- Making eudev default makes it more prominent and less likely to die off
- Therefore, eudev as a default is a good thing
That said: krinn: next time, please phrase the first part without the insult to the systemd developers. A similar point could be made by writing: "The systemd developers dislike eudev for political reasons, and given their technical history, eudev serves as a good check on their behavior."
With that admonishment, I will also note that I generally prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to posters who are not native English speakers. Idioms rarely translate well, and the message may have had an innocuous idiomatic meaning in its original language. Therefore, my response here is the most I intend to do with this report.
-Hu]
Thanks, Hu, for taking the time; I must say I find it difficult to imagine a language that allowed a positive connotation with "rats", but maybe that's just me. What with all the recent CoC wielding and bold claims of "bad press by a dev" going on, I found it worth to provide at least some reflexion on the baseline set by our users. I actually wish no harm to krinn, Naib, Anon-E-moose or even Tony0945, et al.
Last edited by asturm on Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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