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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
I'm somewhat vulnerable myself being 56 and having high blood pressure, but we're just living in denial if we think we can protect all the vulnerable in the population from being exposed long enough to first develop a vaccine without causing even worse harm than the virus to our own global population. I understand that probably two- thirds of the world's people would like to take this opportunity to take a s*** on Donald Trump's head and say that trying to save the economy is putting money before lives, but that's because they are stupid and do not understand how central economics really is to human existence. Sadly, even the so-called experts that we naturally run to for advice in this circumstance, the scientists, medical professionals, and even public health officials, are largely ignorant regarding macro-economics.
Thanx for being this heroic. I am in that same position here in Germany : I don't think that strategy of phase2 shutdown is sustainable for much longer than 4 weeks.
Also you don't have to argue economicly to show:
Counting the time not lived from all the children isolated and not going to school anymore and counting the babies not produced in hot summer nights would show we are likely diminishing human life far more than the years to come we preserve for old men. Instead these men who are responsible to not invest in pandemic prevention (what Bill Gates says for a decade) are saved and the generation which hadn't any say in politics is not born. Sad !
When the losses wil be higher than 10 Trillion economicly what could have done a yearly investment in virological science of some billions? We have to do this anyway. Otherwise the strict law of biology decides the human being shall have a life expectancy of 44y average only like 200y ago.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Letting the virus rampage would weed out a lot of boomers and potentially fix the reverse population pyramid, which would be a really good thing economically.

It would shorten a few hundred thousand lives by a few years, but truly exceeding the capacity of the hospitals would also eliminate hundreds of billions in questionable medical costs keeping these people alive a bit longer.

Moreover, this idiotic idea of "flattening the curve" not only costs hundreds of billions in medical costs, it costs trillions, as we see already, in stimulus costs alone! The real economic costs are going to be immeasurably large.

And, it's not like we have a shortage of people.

Yes, it's taboo to talk about allowing deaths that could be prevented, but I really believe that if somebody looks back on this decision in apolitical historical retrospect, after the economic damage has been done (the poverty, the hunger, the inability for government's to be able to afford to pay for basic needs such as health care, defense from military aggression, prevention of organized crime, etc., and the long term suffering caused by reduced educational achievement, reduces scientific achievement, etc., they are going to see this "flattening" (shutting down entire economies and prolonging the pandemic) as one of the worst blunders of recorded history.

We look back in historical retrospect on events like World War II, where we voluntarily sent millions of healthy young American males to their deaths, for what? The answer I was taught growing up was that it was "to preserve our way of life". What we're doing here is destroying our way of life.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
We look back in historical retrospect on events like World War II, where we voluntarily sent millions of healthy young American males to their deaths, for what? The answer I was taught growing up was that it was "to preserve our way of life". What we're doing here is destroying our way of life.


That was the wrong answer. For the Allies, the war was fought to defeat the Nazis and their allies.

With regard to "way of live" what was meant was freedom as defined in the West, not the economy.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you're telling me that the government ordering businesses to close and people to stay in their homes, and arbitrarily indebting them by an additional $10K each after destroying their means of subsisting is your idea of "freedom"? I think you haven't really thought this through.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
I think you haven't really thought this through.
Your first time on the internet? That's pretty much its entire history.

Quote:
Berners-Lee saw an opportunity to join hypertext with the internet.
I think you haven't really thought this through.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The young man shall starve the next three years.
That is the time frame of "flattening the curve" .
The young man shall pay the price twice of which
the old man didn't pay for pandemic prevention.
The young man shall not have enough for a child, but
the old man survives and cruizes the world again
and brings back home new tiny little enemies.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On 2020-Feb-25 we both saw CoVid-19 is going to become a catastrophe : (I predicted wrongly the money issue obviously as you see here:)
Muso wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
The coming CoVid-19 collapse will show Trump has no plan and no money for the catastrophe coming. Every U.S. voter is getting hungry for a bit of life saving socialism ...


FFS. this catastrophe was born from socialism. The Chinese government completely screwed up, again, and has inflicted this virus on the planet... and you try to blame Trump.

Pathetic.
We both knew, but
What did Trump do all the weeks before he started seriously about it last week?
... grounding some aeroplanes.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't try and deflect. This seems most likely to have come from a CPC laboratory, as it has been traced to horseshoe bats, which do exist in Wuhan... just not naturally. They have them in the bio labs. The same labs had open positions for people to help research corona viruses in bats last year.

China has absolutely f*cked the planet, Nobody, but the CPC (CCP) deserves blame, as they were the ones who not only unleashed this plague on the planet, but also tried to cover it up. Their cover up mislead all other world leaders.

U.S. Intelligence Tells Trump That China ‘Intentionally’ Lied About Coronavirus Outbreak, Report Says

Coronavirus: China lying about number of cases and deaths, US intelligence says
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
The young man shall starve the next three yea... .

Some young men are less useless and less helpless than others. Less whiny and pathetic too.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
What did Trump do all the weeks before he started seriously about it last week?
... grounding some aeroplanes.


Trump started his Chinese Wuhan Virus task force in January and blocked travel from China a day later. This is during the same time when your beloved democrat politicians were trying to impeach him and telling their own constituents to go hang out in China town (both NYNY and Pelosi in San Fran).

You're out of your leagues here. Just knock it off already.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:


I stand by my initial perspective that the best thing to do (until there is a vaccine) is stay healthy, abide by official guidance, accept the fact that you're going to be exposed, hole up for a few days and do the obvious things at the first sign of any symptoms (lots of sleep, fluids, etc), and and rely on your highly-evolved immune system to build up your defenses. That's merely my opinion.



There is just a small problem: the cytokine storm that kills people is actually an overreaction of the immune system, it is actually the immune system of a person that kills, not the virus. The stronger the immune system the stronger the storm.
Actually it is more important that anybody with flu-like symptoms stay home and not risk spreading it further.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Don't try and deflect. This seems most likely to have come from a CPC laboratory, as it has been traced to horseshoe bats, which do exist in Wuhan... just not naturally. They have them in the bio labs. The same labs had open positions for people to help research corona viruses in bats last year.

China has absolutely f*cked the planet, Nobody, but the CPC (CCP) deserves blame, as they were the ones who not only unleashed this plague on the planet, but also tried to cover it up. Their cover up mislead all other world leaders.

U.S. Intelligence Tells Trump That China ‘Intentionally’ Lied About Coronavirus Outbreak, Report Says

Coronavirus: China lying about number of cases and deaths, US intelligence says


Don't forget the WHO are complicit in the CCP lies
no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission

This is China lying, this is leaving the world unprepared, this is the WHO equally responsible for all the deaths

Also
https://t.co/QbSWDLg9Uu?amp=1


The Who needs to be investigated, China needs to be isolates
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit: bad edited post - see next!

Last edited by ulenrich on Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Don't forget the WHO are complicit in the CCP lies
no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission

This is China lying, this is leaving the world unprepared, this is the WHO equally responsible for all the deaths

Also
https://t.co/QbSWDLg9Uu?amp=1


The Who needs to be investigated, China needs to be isolates
The facts are:
Soon after the statement on 2020-01-25 the WHO met with chinese authorities
1. 2020-01-28
Which was in conflict and not much more than proceedings talked about
2. 2020-01-30
This was more productive a meeting:
WHO wrote:
There are now 7711 confirmed and 12167 suspected cases throughout the country. Of the confirmed cases, 1370 are severe and 170 people have died. 124 people have recovered and been discharged from hospital.

The WHO Secretariat provided an overview of the situation in other countries. There are now 83 cases in 18 countries. Of these, only 7 had no history of travel in China. There has been human-to-human transmission in 3 countries outside China. One of these cases is severe and there have been no deaths.

At its first meeting, the Committee expressed divergent views on whether this event constitutes a PHEIC or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC, but theCommittee members agreed on the urgency of the situation and suggested that the Committee should continue its meeting on the next day, when it reached the same conclusion.

This second meeting takes place in view of significant increases in numbers of cases and additional countries reporting confirmed cases.

....

China quickly identified the virus and shared its sequence, so that other countries could diagnose it quickly and protect themselves, which has resulted in the rapid development of diagnostic tools.

The very strong measures the country has taken include daily contact with WHO and comprehensive multi-sectoral approaches to prevent further spread. It has also taken public health measures in other cities and provinces; is conducting studies on the severity and transmissibility of the virus, and sharing data and biological material. The country has also agreed to work with other countries who need their support. The measures China has taken are good not only for that country but also for the rest of the world.

The Committee acknowledged the leading role of WHO and its partners.

The Committee also acknowledged that there are still many unknowns, cases have now been reported in five WHO regions in one month, and human-to-human transmission has occurred outside Wuhan and outside China.

....

China quickly identified the virus and shared its sequence, so that other countries could diagnose it quickly and protect themselves, which has resulted in the rapid development of diagnostic tools.

The very strong measures the country has taken include daily contact with WHO and comprehensive multi-sectoral approaches to prevent further spread. It has also taken public health measures in other cities and provinces; is conducting studies on the severity and transmissibility of the virus, and sharing data and biological material. The country has also agreed to work with other countries who need their support. The measures China has taken are good not only for that country but also for the rest of the world.

The Committee acknowledged the leading role of WHO and its partners.

The Committee also acknowledged that there are still many unknowns, cases have now been reported in five WHO regions in one month, and human-to-human transmission has occurred outside Wuhan and outside China.

The Committee believes that it is still possible to interrupt virus spread, provided that countries put in place strong measures to detect disease early, isolate and treat cases, trace contacts, and promote social distancing measures commensurate with the risk. It is important to note that as the situation continues to evolve, so will the strategic goals and measures to prevent and reduce spread of the infection. The Committee agreed that the outbreak now meets the criteria for a Public Health Emergency of International Concern and proposed the following advice to be issued as Temporary Recommendations.

The Committee emphasized that the declaration of a PHEIC should be seen in the spirit of support and appreciation for China, its people, and the actions China has taken on the frontlines of this outbreak, with transparency, and, it is to be hoped, with success. In line with the need for global solidarity, the Committee felt that a global coordinated effort is needed to enhance preparedness in other regions of the world that may need additional support for that.

....

Under Article 43 of the IHR, States Parties implementing additional health measures that significantly interfere with international traffic (refusal of entry or departure of international travellers, baggage, cargo, containers, conveyances, goods, and the like, or their delay, for more than 24 hours) are obliged to send to WHO the public health rationale and justification within 48 hours of their implementation. WHO will review the justification and may request countries to reconsider their measures. WHO is required to share with other States Parties the information about measures and the justification received.

...

The Committee believes that it is still possible to interrupt virus spread, provided that countries put in place strong measures to detect disease early, isolate and treat cases, trace contacts, and promote social distancing measures commensurate with the risk. It is important to note that as the situation continues to evolve, so will the strategic goals and measures to prevent and reduce spread of the infection. The Committee agreed that the outbreak now meets the criteria for a Public Health Emergency of International Concern and proposed the following advice to be issued as Temporary Recommendations.

The Committee emphasized that the declaration of a PHEIC should be seen in the spirit of support and appreciation for China, its people, and the actions China has taken on the frontlines of this outbreak, with transparency, and, it is to be hoped, with success. In line with the need for global solidarity, the Committee felt that a global coordinated effort is needed to enhance preparedness in other regions of the world that may need additional support for that.
I pointed away diplomatic courtyard sentences from:
WHO paper from 2020-Jan-30

The measures urged by the WHO and the virological information given from China enabled South Korea and Singapore to fully isolate the CoVid-19 pandemic. For the public in Germany it was too far away to abstain from Carnevale. But we have used the virological information in Germany to test fully as can.

What did the U.S. do in the 1.5 months ahead until the pandemic fire started big in their lands?

From the WHO site you cannot see any complience with the CPC. They just needed 5 days to get the full glimpse of the disaster and advice which now is implemented in the U.S.
I could give a full list of Trump Twitter quotes the following 6 weeks where he tried to not get disturbed in his stock market all time high celebration. It was only another fake news for him. So he decided to push away the CDC woman who said otherwise.


Last edited by ulenrich on Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:00 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Law of jungle.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Law of jungle.
France recently hijacked facemasked due to UK ... Rich if they start crying about that
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Law of jungle.
Equivalent to the usual guy fist fighting for toilett paper in the grocery store. We have a mental health issue also
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
Law of jungle.
Equivalent to the usual guy fist fighting for toilett paper in the grocery store. We have a mental health issue also


This is the major mistake all lefties around the world do. They think laws of nature stop functioning if they want. Exercise: Jump off Empire State Building and think the law of gravitation is not working for you.

Look at ulenrich here. He has been apparently indoctrinated by western education system, now he reads MSM like WaPo and Guardian and believes everything written there. Lost case, if you ask me.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Jaglover, you are dissing me, because I found your link funny?
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to start learning Chinese.

China takes control of human rights council.

By now it is shorter list to make what is not coming from China and where China is not involved.

Virus? From China.
Virus relief, medical supplies? China.
Influence all over the world? China rules.
The world’s largest industrial output? China.

UN, WHO, you name it. They own it, if not fully yet then just wait.

So here's the fail-proof business idea - start teaching Chinese.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
Law of jungle.
France recently hijacked facemasked due to UK ... Rich if they start crying about that


Well with all the textile companies that can not work because of the pandemic import gloves, protective gowns, masks, protective goggles from China is silly. Convert the production of some factories to produce them is a lot better for the economy and health. And seriously nobody can go shopping wearing properly a ffp2/3 or N95 mask a surgical mask, a scarf or a summer neck warmer are a lot more confortable.

BTW I have heard that in France there are 5000 ventilators and 6600 people needing them currently.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at least it wasn't a bioweapon. Imagine the impact that might have had on the world if one were released.


Regarding WHO:
When asked about Taiwan, WHO Dr. Aylward first pretended not hearing then awkwardly cut the line.

His response after they call back is even better.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Germany the virus is low
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
In Germany the virus is low


Interesting...Is zyklon b the cure?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
In Germany the virus is low
Want to report to you an interesting fact from Germany.
We have two very different infected regions. The south-west got infected in carnival with a mixed group of all ages, while the north - Hamburg,Berlin - got its infection in Austria and North-Italy while skiing.
Despite the infection rate in the northern towns is higher than in the south-west the most of our ventilators are not in use yet, while these machines in the south-western area of Germany are all in use.
So, my formula hadn't that kind of difference acknowledged.
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