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axl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:58 am    Post subject: What is up with gentoo unstable these days? Reply with quote

Hi. No offense to the gentoo devs. I'm just a bit confused.

Things are not as they used to be. The more time passes, the more I get the feeling that gentoo is slipping into a debian kind of way. Old stable things. Even the unstable branch is sometimes old. On top of that, packages that were supposed to be 9999 (the git version) are unmaintained. What is up with that?

Are devs in short supply these days or people just don't care about new packages therefor devs don't bother? Can I volunteer or it would be pointless? Again, not trying to be an a-hole. It's just that my overlay is getting bigger by the day. It's like the unstable branch is not so new anymore. I mean some packages are still new & up to date, but not all of them. One example is gnome, which is really really far behind the gnome guys. At this point I think it's like 6 months behind. It used to be 3.

Are people unwilling to test new versions in unstable, or not enough devs? What is happening? Why aren't more 9999 versions of packages? And why are the 9999 packages to terribly outdated?
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erm67
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bump the ebuilds in your localrepo
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axl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
bump the ebuilds in your localrepo


Yeah. Not like I mentioned that i'm creeped out by the size of my local overlay. But thanks for paying attention :)
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ff11
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for note, the current EAPI distribution: http://packages.gentooexperimental.org/eapi-stats.txt
There is still 353 ebuilds using EAPI 4.

Well, instead of just "bump the ebuilds in your localrepo", you can submitting ebuilds to gentoo (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Submitting_ebuilds). And there is the alternative of Pull Requests on the https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_GitHub
It's look like gentoo need help to keep updated.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11,

Gentoo has always needed help to keep updated.
Please join in the fun.
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axl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize the situation was so precarious. Maybe not the right word, but can't think of another. I joined the mailing lists and I'll try to get a feel of how things work, perhaps I can contribute with some of my ebuilds. Thanks for the replies guys.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the world of open source. Always understaffed. I think we're actually quite on top of things, but ymmv depending on your share of packages you install.

ff11 wrote:
Just for note, the current EAPI distribution: http://packages.gentooexperimental.org/eapi-stats.txt
There is still 353 ebuilds using EAPI 4.

...which is meaningless, as some packages just have really really slow turnaround, and it is not the number one job to bump EAPI if it does not improve anything else. That we got it down to so few EAPI-4 ebuilds in the past few months and dropped several older EAPIs completely is actually quite an achievement.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Welcome to the world of open source. Always understaffed. I think we're actually quite on top of things, but ymmv depending on your share of packages you install.

ff11 wrote:
Just for note, the current EAPI distribution: http://packages.gentooexperimental.org/eapi-stats.txt
There is still 353 ebuilds using EAPI 4.

...which is meaningless, as some packages just have really really slow turnaround, and it is not the number one job to bump EAPI if it does not improve anything else. That we got it down to so few EAPI-4 ebuilds in the past few months and dropped several older EAPIs completely is actually quite an achievement.

Well, i'm on this open source world for long time, and have seen many things. Whenever something seems to be very wrong (even if not), it is always the same cause: pride of those in charge.
I really appreciate your work. But the current GentooLinux contribution system doesn't motivate me to make big contributions.
I've had this same discussion in several opensource projects, and it's always the same thing, pride. I understand that for someone who doesn't receive a salary, pride can be used as part of the payment. But in most situations, there is a reduction in the number of contributions.
That said, you probably want me to specifically point out some of my dissatisfaction. So I'm just going to specify one: I don't feel like submitting one ebuild by creating a bug report, as I feel like i'm contributing just to the work of some Gentoo developer and not to the GentooLinux itself. The same can be applied to the mirror on github, as nothing gets merged. I also don't feel good about using Gentoo's private infrastructure (like https://gitweb.gentoo.org/), because I don't find it as practical as github. So I'm always in doubt who needs help, and who i am helping, if it's GentooLinux or if it's Gentoo developers. It may be the same for you, but for many it isn't. In my opinion, the opensource projects should be the more people independent it can be.
But you don't have to take my insanities into account. I still keep appreciating your work. So thank you.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, your feelings are unfounded.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Well, your feelings are unfounded.

I have heard it many, many times.
It took many years on many projects for this kind of thing to start happening.
And in the process, I always say the same thing: it's never the tool, it's always the people.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
Well, i'm on this open source world for long time, and have seen many things. Whenever something seems to be very wrong (even if not), it is always the same cause: pride of those in charge.
...
I don't feel like submitting one ebuild by creating a bug report, as I feel like i'm contributing just to the work of some Gentoo developer and not to the GentooLinux itself.


Sounds like a prideful reaction. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duane wrote:
ff11 wrote:
Well, i'm on this open source world for long time, and have seen many things. Whenever something seems to be very wrong (even if not), it is always the same cause: pride of those in charge.
...
I don't feel like submitting one ebuild by creating a bug report, as I feel like i'm contributing just to the work of some Gentoo developer and not to the GentooLinux itself.


Sounds like a prideful reaction. :)

Sure is do sounds like. But I'm not in charge of anything here. I'm on the side of people who can contribute. But instead of being convinced to contribute, I have to listen to that.
Consider this: even if you can produce the best music in the world, if no one wants to hear it, then it's no different than any other noise.
Software developers tend to think that if they have the best software, people will use their software (they don't even need to do surveys). But history has often proved otherwise. Not always the most popular, it is the best available.
If I don't like it, I just won't use it. There is no pride in this.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, users benefit from well-maintained and timely updated packages. If you have updates that meet those criteria, submitting them to the main repository, or to well known and widely used overlays, is helpful.
ff11 wrote:
I don't feel like submitting one ebuild by creating a bug report, as I feel like i'm contributing just to the work of some Gentoo developer and not to the GentooLinux itself.
If you help one Gentoo developer work a bit better, that person can spend more time working on the Gentoo Linux project.
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ff11
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
In general, users benefit from well-maintained and timely updated packages. If you have updates that meet those criteria, submitting them to the main repository, or to well known and widely used overlays, is helpful.
ff11 wrote:
I don't feel like submitting one ebuild by creating a bug report, as I feel like i'm contributing just to the work of some Gentoo developer and not to the GentooLinux itself.
If you help one Gentoo developer work a bit better, that person can spend more time working on the Gentoo Linux project.

Hu! I know you are a good guy.
So let's say that somebody want to work hard on many ebuilds.
And for some relevant job, he want to put his contributions on his curriculum vitae. What will he put? Bug reports? Pull Requests that never get merged?
All of his contributions are entering the main tree with the authorship of the Gentoo developer who made the commit. He can't put anything in his curriculum, but the Gentoo developer can (using all the hard work done by someone else).
And if he is dissatisfied, and try to insert authorship inside the ebuild, he will end up just like this person here: [url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/linux.gentoo.dev/48deaEMAlmA/TJ1_6YVyDAAJ[/url]
Then do you want to say the same thing to me? like:
asturm wrote:
Well, your feelings are unfounded.

Do you really think that way too? Please, choose one side.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump the ebuild from X.Y.Z to X.Y.Z+1 is a 5 minutes job, in 99% of the cases upstream only fixed some bugs. Clearly to enter portage a bump like that that requires extensive testing and QA approval by the responsible persons, that is a lot of work cannot be done by the user, a lot of work that is also invisible since when the bump appears in portage maybe months later the only visible change in the ebuild is the increased versions number and a new hash. Not to mention that years later the bump will be tested on hundreds of architectures that we don't own.
The button on the archlinux packages page that let's users notice the maintainer that upstream has a new release available is more useful, and clean, maybe the maintainer will also have a visual feedback on the real number of users that noticed that the ebuild is outdated and desire it.
The problem is that today I hit a bug that is fixed by upstream and bump the ebuild, but tomorrow there is another bug that doesn't create problems for me so I don't update the ebuild and clearly don't want to be nagged by annoying users that demand the ebuild is updated at every minor release :-) as a user I can say that. I can also laugh when sometimes my ebuild fails to build for some trivial problem and I notice that the bumped ebuild in ~arch months later has the same trivial problem ;-)
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Juippisi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:

And for some relevant job, he want to put his contributions on his curriculum vitae. What will he put? Bug reports? Pull Requests that never get merged?


I feel like overall more pull requests are merged then ignored. It's true using Github is not forced in any official way, but there are active projects who happily merge your contributions. Can you show your Github contributions, and we can decide if we can claim maintainer-timeout for those and get them moving forward?

Quote:
All of his contributions are entering the main tree with the authorship of the Gentoo developer who made the commit. He can't put anything in his curriculum, but the Gentoo developer can (using all the hard work done by someone else).


If you make a Github PR that gets merged, or if you make a patch in git-format, it has you as the author and you get credited correctly. You can even show your commit amount to ::gentoo tree in Github.

I'm sorry you feel ignored, as I said there are devs / projects who ignore contributions, but there are also active devs / projects who happily accept and appreciated them.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: What is up with gentoo unstable these days? Reply with quote

axl wrote:

Why aren't more 9999 versions of packages? And why are the 9999 packages to terribly outdated?


I feel like these are things of the past and not-so-needed anymore after introduction of VCS's like Git.

You used -9999 to track changes upstream did via e-mails etc, but with Git you get cleaner commit change history and usually more frequent updates.

It's probably also due to maintainers not having time/enthusiasm to track upstream like they used to.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine the 9999 versions were indeed something different in the beginning, but couldn't they be "the-git-version" now? I mean, it makes sense to have the ability to get the latest, non-versioned copy from git, and compile that. I use it as such. There are a tone of things that I use as such. rpi kernel, rpi-userlandtools, rpcs3, qemu, gnome-builder and many more. Projects that I feel comfortable enough with, that I can take todays version and work with that. Wish there were more -9999 packages in portage, but I can make my own. Next stop... gnome. Although I imagine it's not going to be easy.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
...I can also laugh when sometimes my ebuild fails to build for some trivial problem and I notice that the bumped ebuild in ~arch months later has the same trivial problem ;-)

Juippisi wrote:
If you make a Github PR that gets merged, or if you make a patch in git-format, it has you as the author and you get credited correctly. You can even show your commit amount to ::gentoo tree in Github.


Ok! I can understand that.
But the github ins't the official tree, it's just one mirror (which, by the way, can be deleted at any time, for any reason, with virtually no impact).
And all of this could be easily solved by adopting github as an official main tree, without using the private git (https://gitweb.gentoo.org)
As I said before, if I don't like it, I just won't use it. But then again, it's never about the tool, it's always about the people.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usefulness of 9999 packages depends on the workflow of the maintainer(s), if there are any. That's why, whenever a user requests adding a 9999 ebuild to a catch-all project like sound@ or graphics@, I'll ask: 'Who is going to maintain it?' If the user won't do it, I won't add it.

In KDE proj however, all releases are created from 9999 ebuilds, there are several active users of these live ebuilds and they create reliable bug reports whenever something breaks. That is by far not enough to keep them up to date, but it helps nevertheless. And ideally they are ready to simply copy to new release version on release day.


@ff11: Don't make assumptions, you clearly have no idea how we work. There is only one gentoo.git. Contributions from GitHub are pushed via Gentoo's resources, this is where contributors are listed, if we tomorrow switch from GitHub over to GitLab that does not change one bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
@ff11: Don't make assumptions, you clearly have no idea how we work. There is only one gentoo.git. Contributions from GitHub are pushed via Gentoo's resources, this is where contributors are listed, if we tomorrow switch from GitHub over to GitLab that does not change one bit.

I'm not making assumptions. Just saying why i don't like your contribution system.
It's like you say:
asturm wrote:
Well, your feelings are unfounded.

But I'm still not comfortable with that.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for interrupting this small talk. I want to say something. I also want to help the project in my spare time, I write in C, Java, Python, Groovy, JavaScript and Go. I tried to contribute to few projects written in Go and some work was accepted. I work with Docker and Swarm. If the project is understaffed and needs a new blood - I can donor a bit. Why: gentoo is a bastion of a freedom in linux world. What is the barrier for me? High entry level of understanding how the project works, ancient tools. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
I'm not making assumptions. Just saying why i don't like your contribution system.

It is completely fine if you don't like it, I don't care. But I merge contributions from users almost every day, and they are credited as author every time. Anything else is simply untrue.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
ff11 wrote:
I'm not making assumptions. Just saying why i don't like your contribution system.

It is completely fine if you don't like it, I don't care. But I merge contributions from users almost every day, and they are credited as author every time. Anything else is simply untrue.

Do you want to deny that it never happened? Here one case: [url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/linux.gentoo.dev/48deaEMAlmA/TJ1_6YVyDAAJ[/url]
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any preventive measures guaranteeing that it won't happen again, and that it won't have continued to happen (even in bug report submissions).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In every community you'll find instances of mishandling authorship. Is it the rule in Gentoo? No. Is it reasonable to freak out over maybe 0.1% of all commits? No.
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