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curmudgeon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:52 am    Post subject: Is anyone running a *kit free system? Reply with quote

As I prepare to install Gentoo on another machine, I want to consider environments without consolekit and polkit. I wonder in any forum members run such systems, hove they have set them up, and the impact on usability (if any) from not having consolekit and polkit. Thank you in advance.
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charles17
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Is anyone running a *kit free system? Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
..., I want to consider environments without consolekit and polkit. ...

No consolekit here and no polkit. No problems. Packages used
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no consolekit/polkit/elogind/systemd myself, I don't even use startx/xinit or a display manager either, and my .bash_profile starts rootless X directly from a autologin console in the .bash_profile (if detected to be on the right tty), plus trap signals for when killed to cleanup and close everything cleanly 8)

I still do a few things that consolekit/Xsession/xdm would do though, like set a cleaned proper XDG_RUNTIME_DIR, X permissions, start dbus + update variables (what I use happen to need it, but there are plenty of things that don't), have sudo rules to do things like shutdown (consolekit also handles this so your DE can have a shutdown button), among other things.

But all this manual setting up is not for everyone, purpose of those things is mostly so you don't have to worry about anything and it's done for you. But if using minimalist environment (rather than a full blown Desktop Environment), it's often just useless fluff.

Ultimately be good to know what kind of environment you're looking for, if you want to use something full blown like Gnome you're better off using them as-is. Looking at the recent poll thread may give ideas, anything using window managers directly is often far less limiting (despite being a DE, xfce4 is also fairly versatile and lets you remove components, at most no consolekit means no shutdown button, mentioning because it's what I "kinda" use myself, but I heavily stripped it down and is just a window manager + panel at this point)
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Gatsby
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1104112-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-50.html


Regards, Gatsby
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etnull
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-elogind -consolekit -policykit
bspwm, no login manager, single sit machine, no problems or lack of functionality that I would need.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never had any of it installed. Half a web browser engine to avoid writing 5 lines of acpid config? No.
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fturco
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have neither polkit nor consolekit on my Gentoo system. No problems so far.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No kits, no pam, no systemd. no elogind. Launching Mate 1.12 with XDM.
Unfortunately a few packages require dbus. Trying to be RedHat free.
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AJM
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're getting the picture by now, but I removed all the "kits" from my system a year or two ago when I took the trouble to see what they were actually needed for (and the answer was nothing, so far as I'm concerned.)

I'm using OpenRC / no PAM / XDM / Windowmaker. No issues whatsoever, only the benefits of a leaner system. (I should note that I'm not totally against PAM in principle - I've used some of its more esoteric features on some systems, but it's totally unnecessary for my desktop PC.)
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mike155
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
Is anyone running a *kit free system?

Ant P. wrote:
Never had any of it installed.

AJM wrote:
but I removed all the "kits" from my system a year or two ago

Really?

What about:
  • app-portage/gentoolkit
  • app-crypt/p11-kit
  • net-misc/netkit-telnetd
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoolkit is not a redHat kit and has resemblance to them.
No, I don't have the other two and never heard of them.

EDIT: no resemblance


Last edited by Tony0945 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

$ eix kit shows

Code:
[I] app-crypt/p11-kit
[I] app-portage/gentoolkit
[I] dev-java/javatoolkit
all the other hits are not installed.

I don't have a device manager either.
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curmudgeon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ionen wrote:
Ultimately be good to know what kind of environment you're looking for, if you want to use something full blown like Gnome you're better off using them as-is. Looking at the recent poll thread may give ideas, anything using window managers directly is often far less limiting (despite being a DE, xfce4 is also fairly versatile and lets you remove components, at most no consolekit means no shutdown button, mentioning because it's what I "kinda" use myself, but I heavily stripped it down and is just a window manager + panel at this point)


I guess what I want is something that doesn't try to do everything. I would like it (this will go to a relatively non-technical user) so that ordinary users could mount removable media, if possible. If I understand, that rules out udisks, and (since it requires udisks) KDE. Does some way exist to set that up in other desktop environments?

As a (rather long) aside, my biggest gripe comes from polkit (post 0.104) requiring a complete javascript engine - something I definitely don't want on any of my machines. To make matters worse, polkit specifically requires spidermonkey, a complete piece of bloat that happens to come from Mozilla. For me, Mozilla ranks just below Poettering on my hate list of people/organizations involved with Linux (that came from all of the years they kept telling me "you don't need a 64-bit browser" - yes, I did, as I had a 64-bit pure system incapable of running 32-bit binaries).

Anyway, I just did a scan on the portage tree of all applications that still require an aotoconf from the last millennium. There are the four Mozilla packages (firefox, seamonkey, spidermonkey, and thunderbird), of course. Aside from some older xemacs builds still in the tree, the only other apps that need autoconf 2.1 are pchar (which hasn't seen an update for fifteen years, and seems like a candidate for removal) and grass. That's it. I amused myself last night reading their attempts to upgrade their build system. About five years ago, they admitted they "haven't figured out how to [get rid of autoconf entirely] yet," but said they were "pretty much already well down the road on" writing their own macro replacements. Still no sign of that. It always scares me when people don't know their own software well enough to build it without requiring something as archaic as autoconf 2.1. That alone leads me to not trust it.
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charles17
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
... If I understand, that rules out udisks, and (since it requires udisks) KDE.

sys-fs/udisks would pull in all the trouble, even without any DE
Code:
$ USE=-consolekit emerge -pvt sys-fs/udisks

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

!!! The ebuild selected to satisfy ">=sys-auth/polkit-0.110" has unmet requirements.
- sys-auth/polkit-0.115-r4::gentoo USE="gtk -consolekit -elogind -examples -introspection -jit -kde -nls -pam (-selinux) -systemd -test" ABI_X86="(64)"

  The following REQUIRED_USE flag constraints are unsatisfied:
    exactly-one-of ( consolekit elogind systemd )

(dependency required by "sys-fs/udisks-2.8.4::gentoo" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "sys-fs/udisks" [argument])
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Blind_Sniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... If I understand, that rules out udisks, and (since it requires udisks) KDE.


Without udisks Device Notifier will not work, and Dolphin will not show partitions at the left pane.
Unfortunately udisks pulls almost all the kits in, because mounting partitions by clicking notifier (or partitions at left pane) requires it.
Though, as an alternative, you can launch konsole and mount partitions by hand on every device connection.
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charles17
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind_Sniper wrote:
Though, as an alternative, you can launch konsole and mount partitions by hand on every device connection.

And there are more ways of mounting without udisks, see https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Removable_media#Mounting_removable_media.
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Gatsby
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles17 wrote:
curmudgeon wrote:
... If I understand, that rules out udisks, and (since it requires udisks) KDE.

sys-fs/udisks would pull in all the trouble, even without any DE
Code:
$ USE=-consolekit emerge -pvt sys-fs/udisks

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

!!! The ebuild selected to satisfy ">=sys-auth/polkit-0.110" has unmet requirements.
- sys-auth/polkit-0.115-r4::gentoo USE="gtk -consolekit -elogind -examples -introspection -jit -kde -nls -pam (-selinux) -systemd -test" ABI_X86="(64)"

  The following REQUIRED_USE flag constraints are unsatisfied:
    exactly-one-of ( consolekit elogind systemd )

(dependency required by "sys-fs/udisks-2.8.4::gentoo" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "sys-fs/udisks" [argument])


No, it is quite easy. With slightly modified ebuilds of kde-frameworks/solid and kde-plasma/powerdevil in a local repository kde5 (plasma5) is running on my gentoo systems without consolekit, elogind or systemd. I removed the consolekit, upower and udisks2 dependencies from mentioned ebuilds. The login manager sddm works as expected, only shutdown and reboot are dysfunctional. But since I don't need a seat manager, it is no discomfort for me to shutdown and reboot conventionally with shutdown/reboot.

Code:
gcomp ~ # diff -u /usr/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild /usr/local/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild
--- /usr/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild    2019-11-12 23:40:02.000000000 +0100
+++ /usr/local/portage/kde-frameworks/solid/solid-5.64.0-r1.ebuild      2019-11-13 18:12:47.781659930 +0100
@@ -20,14 +20,13 @@
        >=dev-qt/qtdeclarative-${QTMIN}:5
        >=dev-qt/qtwidgets-${QTMIN}:5
        >=dev-qt/qtxml-${QTMIN}:5
-       sys-fs/udisks:2
        virtual/libudev:=
 "
 DEPEND="${RDEPEND}
        test? ( >=dev-qt/qtconcurrent-${QTMIN}:5 )
 "
 
-PATCHES=( "${FILESDIR}/${P}-udisks2-media-change-detection.patch" )
+#PATCHES=( "${FILESDIR}/${P}-udisks2-media-change-detection.patch" )
 
 pkg_postinst() {
        ecm_pkg_postinst


Code:
gcomp ~ # diff -u /usr/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild /usr/local/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild
--- /usr/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild 2019-11-12 23:40:02.000000000 +0100
+++ /usr/local/portage/kde-plasma/powerdevil/powerdevil-5.17.3.ebuild   2019-11-13 18:15:52.604116154 +0100
@@ -18,7 +18,7 @@
 
 DEPEND="
        >=kde-frameworks/kactivities-${KFMIN}:5
-       >=kde-frameworks/kauth-${KFMIN}:5[policykit]
+       >=kde-frameworks/kauth-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kcompletion-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kconfig-${KFMIN}:5
        >=kde-frameworks/kconfigwidgets-${KFMIN}:5
@@ -52,7 +52,7 @@
 "
 RDEPEND="${DEPEND}
        >=kde-plasma/kde-cli-tools-${PVCUT}:5
-       >=sys-power/upower-0.9.23
+       sys-power/pm-utils
 "
 
 src_configure() {

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Blind_Sniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles17 wrote:
Blind_Sniper wrote:
Though, as an alternative, you can launch konsole and mount partitions by hand on every device connection.

And there are more ways of mounting without udisks, see https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Removable_media#Mounting_removable_media.


It suitable for known devices which you use permanently, but even this case it's very uncomfortable, in fact you still need to open konsole and mount it by hand
And this method is unusable for accidental attachable devices which UUIDs and labels you do not know.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try sys-apps/uam to mount removable media.

"Simple udev-based automounter for removable USB media"
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an automounter, what it will do on attaching device with dozen of partitions? Mount them all? Even if you do not need it? LOL.
And what about unmounting? Will unmount automatically???
And will it add all the partitions on the left Dolphin panel? It's the main udisks feature.

I used to use system without udisks (I used scripts, udev rules, pmount e.t.c.). Eventually I installed udisks with all the dependencies crap back. Just to have left panel populated with partitions
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GTK will list anything in /etc/fstab and mount it on click if the mount opts permit it. No udisks necessary.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just removed consolekit, polkit and udisks from my system.

I put -consolekit -policykit in /etc/portage/make.conf and played with some masked use flags :
Code:
thomas@gentoo ~ % grep kit /etc/portage/profile/package.use.mask
kde-frameworks/kauth policykit
net-print/hplip policykit
thomas@gentoo ~ % grep kit /etc/portage/profile/use.mask       
-policykit


As I use Plasma, I had to modify the solid ebuild to get rid of the udisks dependency.

To reboot/shutdown my computer properly, I use the following script (called from a shortcut in the menu or the taskbar)
Code:
thomas@gentoo ~ % cat .config/shortcuts/reboot.sh
#!/bin/sh
qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 0 2
sleep 5
sudo /sbin/reboot


With the right sudo config :
Code:
thomas@gentoo ~ % sudo grep halt /etc/sudoers
%wheel ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: /sbin/halt, /sbin/reboot


I also installed uam to automount usb drives. It works so far. I still have to find a solution to properly umount these devices.
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curmudgeon
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I have found nirvana:

https://lumina-desktop.org/

Quote:

Written in C++/Qt5 and is not based on any existing desktop’s code-base, and does not use any of the Linux-based desktop frameworks (ConsoleKit, PolicyKit, D-Bus, systemd, etc..)


Thanks to all who replied, particularly Gatsby (and Tom_), who shared their tricks for using kde without udisks/consolekit/polkit. I might take that up at some point in the future (and I hope that KDE follows up on their pledge to become "more modular").

Most of the methods for mounting removable media appear to depend on (very) inactive software (as if all of the developers just abandoned their projects once udisks became popular). I believe I will look at autofs for now, mostly because I know that the code still gets looked at from time to time. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curmudgeon wrote:
(and I hope that KDE follows up on their pledge to become "more modular").

'Becoming modular' has happened long ago; software made by KDE is so modular you can use any part as long as it does not depend on stuff you don't like; but it was never meant in a sense to provide a stone age version of the Plasma desktop.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:

'Becoming modular' has happened long ago; software made by KDE is so modular you can use any part as long as it does not depend on stuff you don't like;


Which can of course easily invalidate any modularity if one wishes :). KDE is not too bad in this regard, but say why it uncoditionally depends on wayland ? Surely a
typical user has one or another, X or wayland, but shouldn't be needing both at the same time.
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