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TomaLars
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Joined: 30 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Yoke and Joystick detected only with root privileges Reply with quote

Hi Gentooers,

I have just received the Alpha yoke from Honeycomb (and yes, it's really nice!), plugged in together with a generic joystick and run lsusb. The joystick has been recognized the yoke has a nice empty row.
Code:
$ lsusb
Bus 003 Device 089: ID 06d6:0026 Aashima Technology B.V. Predator TH 400 Gamepad
Bus 002 Device 005: ID 413c:2112 Dell Computer Corp.
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 045e:00cb Microsoft Corp. Basic Optical Mouse v2.0
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 058f:6362 Alcor Micro Corp. Flash Card Reader/Writer
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 091: ID 294b:1900
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 0cf3:e004 Qualcomm Atheros Communications
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

I run lshw and I get that the yoke has been recognized from the system:
Code:
$ sudo lshw
*-usb:0
             description: USB controller
             product: 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family USB xHCI Host Controller
             vendor: Intel Corporation
             version: 04
             width: 64 bits
             clock: 33MHz
             capabilities: pm msi xhci bus_master cap_list
             configuration: driver=xhci_hcd latency=0
             resources: irq:25 memory:f7200000-f720ffff
           *-usbhost:0
                product: xHCI Host Controller
                vendor: Linux 4.19.66-gentoo xhci-hcd
                physical id: 0
                bus info: usb@3
                logical name: usb3
                version: 4.19
                capabilities: usb-2.00
                configuration: driver=hub slots=4 speed=480Mbit/s
              *-usb:1
                   description: Human interface device
                   product: Alpha Flight Controls
                   vendor: Honeycomb Aeronautical
                   physical id: 2
                   bus info: usb@3:2
                   version: 0.10
                   capabilities: usb-2.00
                   configuration: driver=usbhid maxpower=500mA speed=12Mbit/s

With the help of this post I have noticed that only if I run X-Plane with root privileges I get my hardware detected within the game.
(The other solution should be to create a rule in /etc/udev/rules.d, but this is something that I still have to try..)
I have genkernel configured and according to Honeycomb there are no additional drivers to install under X-Plane.

Does anybody know why I get nothing from lsusb and if run the simulator with sudo I get everything functioning?
The hardware is also not detected from FlightGear.
Do I have to add my user to some group that I ignore?
Any help or reference is appreciated.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

Only 294b:1900 is read from the USB device.
lsusb gets the text string describing the device from a database by using the Vendor and Device IDs as the index.
294b:1900 is missing from your lsusb database, so its blank.

What devices are created is /dev when you connect the Alpha yoke?
What permissions and groups do they have?
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NeddySeagoon,

Thank you for the quick reply and the info regarding how lsusb works.

I have noticed that both joystick and yoke create the following device:
Code:
/dev $ ls -l
crw------- 1 root     root  245,   3 22 nov 22.22 hidraw3

From what I understand c represent the device file character and the user and the group is root.
The root user can only read and write this file.
And this looks reasonable with what happened yesterday.

Now for me comes the tricky part: which user and group should safely manage this device that it's not always connected to my machine?
What is the risk if I run X-Plane every time with root privileges?
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update.

I have tried to create a custom udev rule to change the user and the owner of the device file every time the yoke is plugged in.
The reason of this is because the game folder must be located in the home folder and my yoke is recognized within X-Plane only when I launch the game with root privileges.

I have created the following rule and saved it as /etc/udev/rules.d/99-alpha-yoke.rules
Code:
ACTION=="add", KERNEL=="hidraw*", SUBSYSTEM=="hidraw", ATTRS{idProduct}=="1900", ATTRS{idVendor}=="294b", MODE="0666", OWNER="tomalars", GROUP="tomalars"

Compared to before I get the expected behaviour
Code:
$ ls -l /dev | grep hidraw
crw-rw-rw- 1 tomalars tomalars 245,   3 23 nov 20.10 hidraw3

Even after this the yoke is properly detected still when I launch the game with root privileges.
To be honest I am not anymore sure if this is the right solution.

I have thought that I have messed up something with the options in my fstab file...please have a look
Code:
/boot           ext4    noauto,nouser,noatime           1 2
/               ext4    noatime,nouser                  0 1
/home           ext4    nodev,nouser,noatime            0 3
none            swap    sw                              0 0

Any help or ideas?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

That looks about right. What groups do you have and what groups is your tomalars user a member of?
You do not need MODE="0666". The last 6, gives world rw permissions. Use 0660.

groups will tell what your are a member of.

I suspect you have the group plugdev.
If so, the device should be owned by root and in the plugdev group. The mode should be 0660 so that only root and plugdev members have access.

Add yourself and any other users who should be allowed access the yoke to the plugdev group.

That's much the same as the audio and video group membership is required to be able to use the sound card and hardware video acceleration.
If you don't like plugdev, or you don't have it, you can make your own group.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NeddySeagoon,

To be honest the udev custom rule that I have posted in the forum is a sum of tests.
What you have written (change only the group into plugdev and the permissions in 0660) was my first idea...my user is part of that group!
...it didn't work...

I am just a computer and linux enthusiast and not by any means fully competent on this topics. This said, allow me to say dumb things...
Could it be some kind of D-Bus related problem? With Gentoo I configure the system by myself and it's possible that I miss something..
Or udev is not the correct device manager? I should mention that I have OpenRC as init system and I am not anymore sure if the two go hand in hand..

I can also tell that I have noticed that the device number of my yoke, that I read through lsusb, constantly increase every 1 or 2 seconds.
Why does this not happen with a keyboard or a mouse?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

That increasing device number is a problem.
It means the device disconnects, then reconnects. Its detected as a new device and gets a new number.
The kernel will remove the /dev entry, then readd it. It might even get a new kernel minor numer if the old number has not been freed.

Try it in another USB port. It may be a USB bus power problem.
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those that do backups
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is hidraw the only device type it adds?

What if you run
Code:
ls /sys/class/hidraw/hidraw3/device/driver/*:*/input/
?
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon,

I have tried all the available usb ports and that device number keeps changing.
I have tried a different distro and still..
The other joystick that I have doesn't give me this problem.

As you said it should be a power issue and some say that with a usb hub it should be gone...I am going to try it..

My question still is: if I solve this problem, do I have the chance to solve the root issue?? Could it be that the two are correlated??
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ant P.

In the /dev folder only hidraw3 is constantly added and removed.
When I run
Code:
ls /sys/class/hidraw/hidraw3/device/driver/0003\:294B\:1900.0074
I get the error "no such file or directory" because the device number 0074 is constantly increasing and the related subfolders appear and disappear.
If I run this command very fast or at the right time I find a subfolder /input and then a subfolder i.e. input130 (130 in this case) with the following data:
Code:
$ ls -l /sys/class/hidraw/hidraw3/device/driver/0003\:294B\:1900.0074/input/input130/
totale 0
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 capabilities
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 device -> ../../../0003:294B:1900.0074
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 event18
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 id
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 modalias
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 name
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 phys
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 power
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 properties
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    0 24 nov 07.52 subsystem -> ../../../../../../../../../class/input
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 uevent
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 4096 24 nov 07.52 uniq

Also to be precise in the directory /dev/char the device 13:82 is added and removed and in /dev/input the event18 is triggered (which is the one that you read above).
The device 13:82 is linked to the event18..
Code:
$ ls -l /dev/char/ | grep 13:82
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 24 nov 07.57 13:82 -> ../input/event18
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it has an input device node, that's good. The most likely reason you're still having to run as root is that the program wants the /dev/input/input??? file, not the /dev/hidraw3 one.

If you create a new udev rule like the old one, but for input instead of hidraw, you should be able to use it without root. This should work:
Code:
ACTION=="add", SUBSYSTEM=="input", ATTRS{idProduct}=="1900", ATTRS{idVendor}=="294b", GROUP="plugdev", MODE="0660"

Fortunately it sounds like X-Plane doesn't mind it constantly disappearing and reappearing all the time, but it'd be good to fix that at some point.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

Put
Code:
lsusb -vvv
onto a pastebin please so we can check your USB device tree.
Please check that the yoke is listed.

A powered USB hub may fix it.

With the device coming and going, it won't be reliable, even for root.
For normal users, the extra step of udev running the rule to fix the permissions, will mean that its available to users for even less time before it vanishes again.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ant P. and NeddySeagoon,

Ant. P,
as you suggested I have changed the subsystem in my udev custom rule and it works!
In the game I can't see any weird behaviour from the yoke to the plane control...it works smooth to me.
So, I would say one problem less!
Thank you so much!

NeddySeagoon,
I have pasted the entire output of lsusb on https://pastebin.com/jhcJyXQg and the yoke is listed in.
I hope you can give me more advices
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

I downloaded your pastebin to make it easy to search.

Your yoke is on bus 003
Code:
$ grep "Bus 003" TomaLars.txt
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 045e:00cb Microsoft Corp. Basic Optical Mouse v2.0
Bus 003 Device 050: ID 294b:1900
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub


Lets look at the power.
Code:
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 045e:00cb Microsoft Corp. Basic Optical Mouse v2.0
   MaxPower              100mA
Bus 003 Device 050: ID 294b:1900
   MaxPower              500mA
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Each USB1 or USB2 bus can provide a total of 500mA for all connected devices, so your yoke needs to be on a USB bus on its own or on a powered hub.
USB3 can provide 900mA for all connected devices.

Overloaded USB busses react to the overload in several different ways.
1. They do nothing at all. The overload can damage the motherboard.
2. They power down the bus and when the fault condition clears, power it up again. This repeats indefinitely.
3. The do load shedding. PIck on a device and power it down.
4. Shut down the bus until you fix it.

The whole bus is not being power cycled. If it were, your mouse would not be device 002.
This makes me think its the kernel putting the device to sleep and waking it up again.

Can you test with the yoke as the only device on the bus or with a powered USB 2 hub?

Pastebin your dmesg and kernel .config please.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon,

Great explanation...I understand the problem.
Now I should plug in the yoke to a usb hub or put it alone on the bus.
In both cases I should then print dmesg and the kernel .config.

Here it comes something new to me.
Could you please explain me how to put the yoke as only device on the bus and where I find the kernel .config?
I'll try tomorrow to provide you these information.
Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

Plug the yoke into each USB port in turn and run
Code:
lsusb | sort.
The -vvv is not required.
The sort makes the list easy to read. Here is a fragment of mine.

Code:
$ lsusb | sort
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 058f:6362 Alcor Micro Corp. Flash Card Reader/Writer
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
...


Bus 001 only has a root hub, so there are no connected devices.
Bus 002 is a root hub and Flash Card Reader/Writer, so the Flash Card Reader/Writer is the only device on the bus.

You need to find a USB port that shows the root hub and yoke as the the only devices on that bus, if you can.
Your system will have internal devices connected to USB too, so it may not be possible. Hence the powered hub test.

The kernel configuration for the running kernel may be at /proc/config.gz If its there use that.
You will need to decompress it before you pastebin
Code:
zcat  /proc/config.gz | wgetpaste

It you don't have /proc/config.gz, It will be at /usr/src/linux/.config
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NeddySeagoon

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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NeddySeagoon,

thank you for the explanation.

I had to disconnect the mouse to test the yoke alone on a bus but the device number keeps increasing.
Code:
$ lsusb | sort
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0cf3:e004 Qualcomm Atheros Communications
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 058f:6362 Alcor Micro Corp. Flash Card Reader/Writer
Bus 002 Device 019: ID 413c:2112 Dell Computer Corp.
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 038: ID 294b:1900
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub

I tested it anyway on a powered usb hub. I just connected the hub to the wall socket and to the pc and the yoke to the hub.
It doesn't get as well a separated bus.
Anyway the hub has a fixed device number whereas the yoke get this changing number.
Code:
$ lsusb | sort
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0cf3:e004 Qualcomm Atheros Communications
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 058f:6362 Alcor Micro Corp. Flash Card Reader/Writer
Bus 002 Device 019: ID 413c:2112 Dell Computer Corp.
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 051: ID 045e:00cb Microsoft Corp. Basic Optical Mouse v2.0
Bus 003 Device 123: ID 1a40:0101 Terminus Technology Inc. Hub
Bus 003 Device 126: ID 294b:1900
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub

On this link you find my kernel configuration and on this link there is the dmesg log from the time that I connect the usb hub.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

Your dmesg shows
Code:
[ 5120.277682] usb 3-2.2: new full-speed USB device number 113 using xhci_hcd
[ 5120.468440] usb 3-2.2: New USB device found, idVendor=294b, idProduct=1900, bcdDevice= 0.10
...
[ 5122.661749] usb 3-2.2: USB disconnect, device number 113
[ 5122.957695] usb 3-2.2: new full-speed USB device number 114 using xhci_hcd
[ 5123.148441] usb 3-2.2: New USB device found, idVendor=294b, idProduct=1900, bcdDevice= 0.10
...
[ 5125.221732] usb 3-2.2: USB disconnect, device number 114

so the device connects and disconnects every few seconds, which is what we thought.

Try adding
Code:
usbcore.autosuspend=10
to the kernel command line.
That may increase the cycle time to about 11 second.s. The default is=2.

With grub, choose the menu entry you wan to boot but press 'e' for edit.
Add usbcore.autosuspend=10 to the end of the kernel line, them boot. This is an in memory change only.
This is not a fix, only a diagnostic.
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NeddySeagoon

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TomaLars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon,

I added that line to the kernel command line and than pressed F10 to boot up but I see no changes.
I did it twice to be sure.
Code:
[   56.729343] hid-generic 0003:294B:1900.0005: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.11 Joystick [Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight
.0-1.2/input0
[   59.027452] usb 1-1.2: USB disconnect, device number 5
[   59.204971] usb 1-1.2: new full-speed USB device number 6 using ehci-pci
[   59.286427] usb 1-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=294b, idProduct=1900, bcdDevice= 0.10
[   59.286431] usb 1-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=128
[   59.286433] usb 1-1.2: Product: Alpha Flight Controls
[   59.286434] usb 1-1.2: Manufacturer: Honeycomb Aeronautical
[   59.286436] usb 1-1.2: SerialNumber: 53FE3819110A3B00
[   59.288987] input: Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight Controls as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1a.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.2/1-1.
put/input20
[   59.289190] hid-generic 0003:294B:1900.0006: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.11 Joystick [Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight
.0-1.2/input0
[   61.587426] usb 1-1.2: USB disconnect, device number 6
[   61.764970] usb 1-1.2: new full-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
[   61.846411] usb 1-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=294b, idProduct=1900, bcdDevice= 0.10
[   61.846415] usb 1-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=128
[   61.846417] usb 1-1.2: Product: Alpha Flight Controls
[   61.846418] usb 1-1.2: Manufacturer: Honeycomb Aeronautical
[   61.846420] usb 1-1.2: SerialNumber: 53FE3819110A3B00
[   61.848997] input: Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight Controls as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1a.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.2/1-1.
put/input21
[   61.849199] hid-generic 0003:294B:1900.0007: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.11 Joystick [Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight
.0-1.2/input0
[   64.147409] usb 1-1.2: USB disconnect, device number 7
[   64.324969] usb 1-1.2: new full-speed USB device number 8 using ehci-pci
[   64.406392] usb 1-1.2: New USB device found, idVendor=294b, idProduct=1900, bcdDevice= 0.10
[   64.406395] usb 1-1.2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=128
[   64.406397] usb 1-1.2: Product: Alpha Flight Controls
[   64.406399] usb 1-1.2: Manufacturer: Honeycomb Aeronautical
[   64.406400] usb 1-1.2: SerialNumber: 53FE3819110A3B00
[   64.408984] input: Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight Controls as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1a.0/usb1/1-1/1-1.2/1-1.
put/input22
[   64.409183] hid-generic 0003:294B:1900.0008: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.11 Joystick [Honeycomb Aeronautical Alpha Flight
.0-1.2/input0

I really don't get it anymore :)
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

I'm out of ideas and Google is not being my friend.

Can you try another distro live media?
If it works elsewhere, it can be made to work on Gentoo too.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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TomaLars
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Joined: 30 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update.
I have checked again what happens on Ubuntu 19.04 (kernel 5.0) and I get the same behaviour.

I also started Windows 10 and it's command line (damn last time I used it was probably 1995) and run a couple of commands that I have found online.
I don't get that OS so much but it seems that all the IDs and addresses stay the same.

I have already contacted the Honeycomb and I hope to get a response.

I would say, as long as nobody has an advice this topic is closed for me.

Thank you NeddySeagoon for your support!
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomaLars,

Here's a really horrible thing to try ... but don't go spending money to do it.

Some USB bus powered HDD were provided with a Y cable to connect to two USB ports.
This was in an attempt to work around the 500mA limit. They take power from both ports but only use one for data.
They lie about their Max Power too.

If you have such a Y-cable lying around, try it.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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