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juniper
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: woman shot to death in own home playing video games Reply with quote

Woman shot while playing video games with nephew in own home. In Texas. USA.

craziness.

the count (of people shot by the police) is at 689 this year (as the year isn't over, it might be useful to note the total for 2018 and 2017 were just under 1000 people being killed by police).

For reference from somewhere where the people are unarmed and at the mercy of the police violence, the UK had 46 deaths by police since 2000. But whereas the US number only includes people being shot by the police, the UK number includes anyone who died by direct or indirect contact with the police (for example, the UK number includes someone who died of a heart attack while in police custody).

So, eyeballing, it looks like american police kill people at over 100x the rate the UK police do
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why should some of us even care? This shit doesn't happen in my state and we have more guns than people in private hands.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shitty things are happening in your country. Innocent people are being shot by the police.

You don't have to care. But that's weird.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
shitty things are happening in your country. Innocent people are being shot by the police.

You don't have to care. But that's weird.

500 people die every weekend due to medical errors, and you want me to get worked up about this?

What you've got here for us to consider is a giant nothingburger.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
shitty things are happening in your country. Innocent people are being shot by the police.

You don't have to care. But that's weird.

500 people die every weekend due to medical errors, and you want me to get worked up about this?

What you've got here for us to consider is a giant nothingburger.


what you've got here for us to consider is a giant irrelevance.

Yes, people die of medical errors. And people die because they got shot by police for seemingly no reason. Not sure why the existence of one makes the other insignificant.

I would have thought a second amendment supporter would care deeply about state violence against its own peaceful citizens. But I guess not. You seem to care enough to comment that you don't care.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup. It's not a bad doc. There's a lot of brilliance in the bill of rights, despite the fumble on amendment 2 :D
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
yup. It's not a bad doc. There's a lot of brilliance in the bill of rights, despite the fumble on amendment 2 :D


Explain to Hong Kong why the 2nd amendment was a fumble.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?
:roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?
:roll:

:roll: :roll:
I don’t see anything in the fourth amendment that says officers have to knock before serving a warrant.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?
:roll:

:roll: :roll:
I don’t see anything in the fourth amendment that says officers have to knock before serving a warrant.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?


Yes.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?


Yes.

Why?

I don't agree with them, but my understanding is that the fourth amendment controls the conditions under which you can be searched, not the methods used to search you.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?
:roll:

:roll: :roll:
I don’t see anything in the fourth amendment that says officers have to knock before serving a warrant.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
The least you could do is point out that Obama killed an American citizen without knocking first.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might not be aware, but no knocks are a relatively new thing. In Miller v US, (1958) the Supreme Court reaffirmed the long standing English law (1604) and the intent of the framers of the Constitution where citizens are secure in their homes and that police must announce themselves before making an entry. It wasn't until 1995 that this long standing practice was overturned in Wilson v Arkansas, as part of the war on drugs. Now, police break down the door, kill the family dog, and in many cases innocent people.

You might find it funny that the President had a kill list, but I see no humor in it. We both know that had it been Trump, you would have had a conniption. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You might not be aware, but no knocks are a relatively new thing. In Miller v US, (1958) the Supreme Court reaffirmed the long standing English law (1604) and the intent of the framers of the Constitution where citizens are secure in their homes and that police must announce themselves before making an entry. It wasn't until 1995 that this long standing practice was overturned in Wilson v Arkansas, as part of the war on drugs. Now, police break down the door, kill the family dog, and in many cases innocent people.


Brennan wrote:
The requirement stated in Semayne's Case still obtains. It is reflected in 18 U.S.C. 3109, in the statutes of a large number of States, 8 and in the American Law [357 U.S. 301, 309] Institute's proposed Code of Criminal Procedure, 28. 9 It applies, as the Government here concedes, whether the arrest is to be made by virtue of a warrant, or when officers are authorized to make an arrest for a felony without a warrant. There are some state decisions holding that justification for noncompliance exists in exigent circumstances, as, for example, when the officers may in good faith believe that they or someone within are in peril of bodily harm, Read v. Case, 4 Conn. 166, or that the person to be arrested is fleeing or attempting to destroy evidence. People v. Maddox, 46 Cal. 2d 301, 294 P.2d 6.

But whether the unqualified requirements of the rule admit of an exception justifying noncompliance in exigent circumstances is not a question we are called upon to decide in this case. The Government makes no claim here of the existence of circumstances excusing compliance. The Government concedes that compliance was required but argues that "compliance is evident from the events immediately preceding the officers' forced entry."

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/357/301.html

Those exigent circumstances are exactly the same principles upon which no-knock warrants exist.

Also interesting - I don't see any reference to the constitution or the fourth amendment in the Miller decision. There are plenty of references to common law, as you point out, and then the judges defer to D.C. laws.

I see no evidence in the Miller decision that a no knock warrant would violate the fourth amendment.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You might find it funny that the President had a kill list, but I see no humor in it. We both know that had it been Trump, you would have had a conniption. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm pretty sure that most recent presidents have had kill lists (or more specifically, their national security apparatii have had kill lists that they have approved). The problem with the specific case you are referring to was a US citizen was killed. Of course, a president having anyone killed is bad, but it is usually technically legal, to the extent that it is possible to apply the concept of legality to international killings by state entities. In this case though, it isn't technically legal, because the president can't assassinate a US citizen without some form of due process. Although Obama claims due process was carried out, that can't be a good enough answer - the due process must be reviewable by the public. So it is worth getting worked up over (what you call having a conniption). That is true whichever president does it. Although it is an incredibly low standard, Trump deserves credit for not having any US citizens killed.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?


Yes.

Why?


The dead woman in the OP? The children burned by police grenades when they had the wrong address? There are countless victims of this unconstitutional nonsense. The reason why we have a 4th amendment is to prevent the government from just breaking into your house and brutalizing you.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Muso wrote:
No-Knock raids violate the 4th amendment. The founding fathers showing their wisdom once again.

Why do you say that? Are they inherently unreasonable?


Yes.

Why?


The dead woman in the OP? The children burned by police grenades when they had the wrong address? There are countless victims of this unconstitutional nonsense.

Those are unreasonable outcomes. The fourth amendment doesn't prevent that. If it did, pretty much all warrants would be unconstitutional, since dead and disfigured people is an occasional outcome.

Quote:
The reason why we have a 4th amendment is to prevent the government from just breaking into your house and brutalizing you.

But they didn't "just break into your house and brutalize you" in these cases. They first went to the court, and got a warrant, as required by the fourth amendment. In these cases, they got a no knock warrant, allowing them to break down your door.

Just because X is bad, doesn't mean X is unconstitutional. If you want to change it, start a campaign to amend the constitution. I'll support it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
...

You don't care about people's lives. You care about doing away with guns.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atatiana Jefferson, was an innocent woman who was killed in her own home, shot through the window by police who then took to the press to assassinate her character.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: woman shot to death in own home playing video games Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
So, eyeballing, it looks like american police kill people at over 100x the rate the UK police do
The comparison is flat out wrong. The US police do their jobs. The UK police don't. You still have the rape gangs and the murder rate due to knifing in London is completely out of hand exceeding the worst US cities. The UK doesn't do anything to actually address the issue because racism. You have a genuine law and order crisis.

Also, the US has a population around 523% of the UK. So that number is actually equivalent to about 100 people being killed in the UK per year and your number include everyone killed, not just mistakenly killed. Amazingly, the worst criminals actually resist arrest and when breaking up gangs there tends to be deaths.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...or maybe it is because successive Tory gubbernments have slashed your police staff...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose the reality of the breakdown of law and order being in labour strongholds shouldn't enter into that discussion at all... :?
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