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Muso
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?


It makes for a very polite society.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?

Who said anything about wackos?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
This is a two way street. Think about it: Why would you cut in front of someone who could be carrying a firearm? One thing I do like about a high ratio of people carrying is that it is sort of a politeness enforcer.

I agree with you that if the number of people carrying guns is high enough, it does tend to encourage politeness. That aggregate effect doesn't in any way mitigate the individual effect that in a one-on-one interaction where one person has a gun and the other doesn't, the one without a gun has more incentive to be polite than the one without a gun.

Quote:
All in all it's just not a problem.

Easy to say when you are the one carrying the gun.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
I agree with you that if the number of people carrying guns is high enough, it does tend to encourage politeness. That aggregate effect doesn't in any way mitigate the individual effect that in a one-on-one interaction where one person has a gun and the other doesn't, the one without a gun has more incentive to be polite than the one without a gun.

I don't generally care about whether or not someone is carrying a gun. If that would change my behavior towards them, then I am not behaving correctly in the first place.

Another way to look at the issue is this: If you are about to behave towards someone in a way that would make you be afraid if they had a weapon, then that behavior is wrong.

richk449 wrote:
Easy to say when you are the one carrying the gun.

It's even easier to come to the conclusion by just watching trends in the news.

We lost another one, by the way. Drove into a telephone pole at the Fairview and Orchard intersection; died in the hospital.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?

Who said anything about wackos?


Sane people don't pull out a gun if someone is impolite. AFAIK, the line by gun advocates is that a gun is for defence, not for enforcing social norms.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?

Who said anything about wackos?


Sane people don't pull out a gun if someone is impolite. AFAIK, the line by gun advocates is that a gun is for defence, not for enforcing social norms.

The gun is for defense. But it also has side effects that I'm not going to complain about.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?

Who said anything about wackos?


Sane people don't pull out a gun if someone is impolite. AFAIK, the line by gun advocates is that a gun is for defence, not for enforcing social norms.

The gun is for defense. But it also has side effects that I'm not going to complain about.


++
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?


It makes for a very polite society.


politeness by the threat of violence? Sounds highly uncivilised to me. Violent coercion is distasteful, especially for something that should be voluntary like politeness.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
I have no idea what you are all talking about. Are you saying it's great everyone is polite because some wacko might pull out a gun?


It makes for a very polite society.


politeness by the threat of violence? Sounds highly uncivilised to me.


It's not the threat of violence. It's the idea that you might have consequences for acting like a complete jerk. It gives you an additional pause, aside form the general one anybody should have about being a prick.

No one is threatening anyone.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am tripping over bodies every time I go to the Safeway store.

Gunshot victims everywhere. The Horror.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
The gun is for defense. But it also has side effects that I'm not going to complain about.


My ex-brother-in-law is a retired Pro Football linebacker. A very big dude. Six foot seven and ~350lbs. of mean. He is a prick. Many people ask him why he "puts up" with rude people when he could clearly demolish them if he wanted. His response is "A bullet kills me just as easy as you."

He is a prick. He is also an informed prick. He behaves well because he knows many people carry guns. I am certain he would be one bad bully if he had no proper respect for guns.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am tripping over bodies every time I go to the Safeway store.

Gunshot victims everywhere. The Horror.

And we don't stop hearing about it, either.

"You can't allow concealed carry! There will be shootouts at every street corner!" <- What the Dems were saying in Texas in 1995.

BonezTheGoon wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
The gun is for defense. But it also has side effects that I'm not going to complain about.


My ex-brother-in-law is a retired Pro Football linebacker. A very big dude. Six foot seven and ~350lbs. of mean. He is a prick. Many people ask him why he "puts up" with rude people when he could clearly demolish them if he wanted. His response is "A bullet kills me just as easy as you."

He is a prick. He is also an informed prick. He behaves well because he knows many people carry guns. I am certain he would be one bad bully if he had no proper respect for guns.

That's kind of...sad. I mean, it's good that he at least knows his place, but the reasoning for his politeness is...sad.

juniper wrote:
politeness by the threat of violence? Sounds highly uncivilised to me. Violent coercion is distasteful, especially for something that should be voluntary like politeness.

I have never once threatened anyone with violence. I have not seen anyone here threaten anyone else with violence.

Most of us are just polite. We're used to being polite and friendly. For people like the linebacker above who are naturally rude...there's another reason to be polite. This is certainly not preferred, but I also have no problems with a fundamentally aggressive person living in fear of what someone might due to them when assaulted.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
It's not the threat of violence. It's the idea that you might have consequences for acting like a complete jerk. It gives you an additional pause, aside form the general one anybody should have about being a prick.


I am not seeing the difference. "the idea you might have consequences" and "a threat" I mean. The consequences aren't going to be being showered with love and rose petals, right? we all know that right?

Quote:
He is a prick. He is also an informed prick. He behaves well because he knows many people carry guns. I am certain he would be one bad bully if he had no proper respect for guns.


this contradicts what Muso said.

It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.

Old School wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am tripping over bodies every time I go to the Safeway store.


Not what the OP is about, and you aren't rebutting any claim any one is making there.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.


police in London do not carry firearms.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
flysideways wrote:
juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.


police in London do not carry firearms.


Hence the rape gangs.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
flysideways wrote:
juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.


police in London do not carry firearms.


I know this one. They have the potato peelers?
I can see one holster it's peeler, shouting: Stop! In the name of love!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
juniper wrote:
flysideways wrote:
juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.


police in London do not carry firearms.


Hence the rape gangs.


Nah. Imagine the UK is Oregan, all the cities are Portland and those most peaceful among the faithful are antifa.
Every bobby in the country could have a squadron of A-10's carrying animal product ammo and it wouldn't be any different, not when every level of government/law and order are more terrified of another certain word beginning with R than anything else.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Hence the rape gangs.


your contention is that guns would have helped that particular tragic (though hardly widespread) problem?

interesting. I think dumping political correctness and getting their heads out of their ass would have helped.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
Hence the rape gangs.


your contention is that guns would have helped that particular tragic (though hardly widespread) problem?

interesting. I think dumping political correctness and getting their heads out of their ass would have helped.


That's why I would have made you the jester of the court
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I am not seeing the difference. "the idea you might have consequences" and "a threat" I mean. The consequences aren't going to be being showered with love and rose petals, right? we all know that right?

If you view the potential consequences of some hostile action as a direct threat then you are a weak-minded sheep. That, or you are intent on committing said hostile action yourself.

juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

True. And it depends on who we're dealing with. Most people don't need the presence of an armed society to encourage politeness. At least, not where I live. But there are those who need that to keep them in check.

juniper wrote:
I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.

Nobody's prodding anyone with guns.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:
Hence the rape gangs.


your contention is that guns would have helped that particular tragic (though hardly widespread) problem?

interesting. I think dumping political correctness and getting their heads out of their ass would have helped.


Why not both?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
I am not seeing the difference. "the idea you might have consequences" and "a threat" I mean. The consequences aren't going to be being showered with love and rose petals, right? we all know that right?

If you view the potential consequences of some hostile action as a direct threat <to whom?> then you are a weak-minded sheep. That, or you are intent on committing said hostile action yourself.


I just felt that part of the sentence incomplete.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
I am not seeing the difference. "the idea you might have consequences" and "a threat" I mean. The consequences aren't going to be being showered with love and rose petals, right? we all know that right?

If you view the potential consequences of some hostile action as a direct threat <to whom?> then you are a weak-minded sheep. That, or you are intent on committing said hostile action yourself.


I just felt that part of the sentence incomplete.

To juniper.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
flysideways wrote:
juniper wrote:
It's seems quite clear that guns and the threat of violence are at least expected to enforce some social norms of politeness.

Quite weird that's needed. In London, people are quite polite and you don't need guns to enforce it. I have lived in the US and really didn't find people (at least in the urban east coast) needed to be prodded by guns to be insanely polite.


An armed, polite and moral people are not a threat to each other.

There are still armed people to be found in London, whose duty is to enforce social norms in the form of the Crown's laws.


Police in London do carry firearms.


FTFY
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