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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean wealthy districts get more funding? What a crazy thought...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm... I don't mean to be rude, but check an electoral map and demographics. Surely your not implying London is a poor city? 8O
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: woman shot to death in own home playing video games Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
juniper wrote:
So, eyeballing, it looks like american police kill people at over 100x the rate the UK police do
The comparison is flat out wrong. The US police do their jobs. The UK police don't. You still have the rape gangs and the murder rate due to knifing in London is completely out of hand exceeding the worst US cities. The UK doesn't do anything to actually address the issue because racism. You have a genuine law and order crisis.

Also, the US has a population around 523% of the UK. So that number is actually equivalent to about 100 people being killed in the UK per year and your number include everyone killed, not just mistakenly killed. Amazingly, the worst criminals actually resist arrest and when breaking up gangs there tends to be deaths.


you really need to learn about the denominator.

1) Rape gangs are a different problem. It's not the lack of guns in the UK stopping the police from dealing with them. I'll be the first to say that is a very important problem to solve, but it has nothing to do with guns and police killing people.

2) The murder rate in London is not completely out of hand when compared to most other cities in the world, and definitely when compared to american cities. Your statement on this is about as false as you can get. the murder rate overall is damn low by american standards. Last I looked, if you compare cities in the US with a population of over 1/4 million with London, London is DEAD LAST on the list for homicides. Vermont (yes, when you include the lovely non-urban places) has a higher murder rate than London. That's how different the murder rates are. Dirty, ugly, mixed population, massive wealth disparity, scary London is better for homicides than Vermont (basically, white new england. Lovely place actually. Maine too).

3) your third point is completely nonsensical. I took the 5x population into account, and the numbers are not comparable as it inflates the UK number in comparison (the UK number includes everyone who died while in contact with law enforcement OVER 20 YEARS. The US number only includes only people shot by police in one year).

Really, don't argue from the point of view that London is dangerous in comparison, because that is just a non starter. It isn't even close compared to american cities. your best route is to go the second amendment is important, or we like guns too much route.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1) Rape gangs are a different problem. It's not the lack of guns in the UK stopping the police from dealing with them. I'll be the first to say that is a very important problem to solve, but it has nothing to do with guns and police killing people.
They continue because of a lack of policing. One constant is that breaking up organized crime is dirty work that usually gets people killed because they don't want to cooperate. I never said anything about guns.
Quote:
The murder rate in London is not completely out of hand when compared to most other cities in the world, and definitely when compared to american cities.
You haven't checked. 2019 is no better, and probably worse when all is said and done.

Enough said on that point because clearly you don't want to see the failures of the UK. Again, a lack of policing is to blame. Policing would address the problem and get people hurt who resist.
Quote:
your third point is completely nonsensical. I took the 5x population into account, and the numbers are not comparable as it inflates the UK number in comparison (the UK number includes everyone who died while in contact with law enforcement OVER 20 YEARS. The US number only includes only people shot by police in one year).
No it isn't. Your presenting raw data and pulling your hair out. If you actually did a comparison you would have to actually compare. The step you left out. You would also have to account for things like suicide by cops, people who are justifiably killed, etc. etc. All things you are steadfastly not doing. If you did that the 23 or so people who died in UK custody would give the US over 100 people dying without cause before you have a comparable number. Or you can keep whining that people who pull guns on cops get shot, because that accounts for most of your number.

The fact is, as I've pointed out, that UK police are not doing their job because they are refusing to address serous organized crime. You should go get worked up about young girls getting raped with police dismissing it as parents unable to accept their 12 year old is growing up. Just how many of those guys do you think are going to go quietly?

And maybe you want to talk about the French police killing and maiming protesters? You know, actual police brutality sanctioned and supported by the EU?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
You know, actual police brutality sanctioned and supported by the EU?

Aww, that's *so* *much* *more* damning when you involve the EU in a completely unrelated matter... :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
They continue because of a lack of policing.


read the Rotherham inquiry. that wasn't cited as the major problem. refusing to investigate for fear was.

Quote:
You haven't checked. 2019 is no better, and probably worse when all is said and done.

Enough said on that point because clearly you don't want to see the failures of the UK. Again, a lack of policing is to blame. Policing would address the problem and get people hurt who resist.


are you really trying to do this? did you bother to read the article you posted? or see what time period it covered? It was early 2018. There is a metro article (google it. FYI, metro isn't the best in the world) talking about how anomalous it is for London to have more murders than NY (approx population the same).

if you bothered to read that article, and realised this, you'd probably then check the year end stats in 2018: London - 137. NY - 289. Some extra information is that 2018 was high for London and low for NY. So normally these numbers are further apart. Just to be thorough the stats for the string of years 2012 - 2018 for London and NY respectively are: 104, 107, 94,119,110, 116, 137 vs 414, 332, 328, 352,335, 292, 289. So, in the last six year, in the year YOU PICKED where the difference was the smallest, the numbers are more than double London.

So, yes, if you compare your favourite month in one particular year, the murder rate in London is higher than NY. But that's not really an honest comparison, is it?


Quote:
No it isn't. Your presenting raw data and pulling your hair out. If you actually did a comparison you would have to actually compare. The step you left out. You would also have to account for things like suicide by cops, people who are justifiably killed, etc. etc. All things you are steadfastly not doing. If you did that the 23 or so people who died in UK custody would give the US over 100 people dying without cause before you have a comparable number. Or you can keep whining that people who pull guns on cops get shot, because that accounts for most of your number.


Don't have the foggiest what your point is. It appears that you think if you divide and multiply different numbers by 100 enough, you'll get some number to prove your point. THE UK NUMBERS ARE OVER 20 YEARS. The US numbers are over 1 year. 1000 in one year vs approximately 50 in 20 years. Accounting for population and number of years, that's about a 100x difference. Just do the math.

You are correct that it isn't an apples to apples comparison, but as I explained that inflates the number for the UK, not the US (the UK number is more inclusive).

Quote:
The fact is, as I've pointed out, that UK police are not doing their job because they are refusing to address serous organized crime. You should go get worked up about young girls getting raped with police dismissing it as parents unable to accept their 12 year old is growing up. Just how many of those guys do you think are going to go quietly?


yet, homicide is lower. So, the lack of policing doesn't explain that. is it your contention that rape is more prevalent in the UK than in the US? Care to back that up?

Quote:
And maybe you want to talk about the French police killing and maiming protesters? You know, actual police brutality sanctioned and supported by the EU?


I don't know anything about France's homicide rate, and hence haven't said anything about it.

As I said, your traction with comparing specifically London homicide to anything in the US isn't going to get you anywhere. It isn't even close. So, I'd start elsewhere if I were you.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cop has been arrested for murder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
They continue because of a lack of policing.


read the Rotherham inquiry. that wasn't cited as the major problem. refusing to investigate for fear was.
:? Maybe you should read what you wrote.

The police are not doing their job, ergo a lack of policing, because they are afraid of people like you calling them racist. Actually quite a pervasive problem in the UK that is not limited to Rotherham.

I don't care why they are not doing their job. The only thing that matters is that they are not doing it.

Quote:
are you really trying to do this? did you bother to read the article you posted? or see what time period it covered? It was early 2018.
Of course, and 2019 figures are following suit. Not that you would care to look up data that proves your assertions wrong.

Quote:
Don't have the foggiest what your point is.
Then I'll make it simple. Comparing raw numbers, as you did in your opening post, is pointless. It fails to account for differences in culture, like US police not being afraid to do their job or suicide by cop, differences in populations, and if the majority are justified or not. Spoiler alert: most lethal force cases in the US are justified by threats to officers and or other people.

You are refusing to accept that reality. These are not innocent people being killed. Those are outliers. Screaming about raw numbers doesn't address the issue in the slightest.

Quote:
You are correct that it isn't an apples to apples comparison, but as I explained that inflates the number for the UK, not the US (the UK number is more inclusive).
You mean a police force that doesn't carry guns and doesn't intervene in violent crime kills fewer people? Slow Clap.

Quote:
is it your contention that rape is more prevalent in the UK than in the US? Care to back that up?
Rotherham still hasn't been addressed. Need I say more? A report concludes a horrific abuse is occurring and... nothing happens.

But I'll play. US according to the BJS: about 2 per thousand or 1 in 500. The 2006–07 Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey) reports that 1 in every 200 women were raped in that period. That would be 5 in 1000. Do I win? :roll:

Quote:
I don't know anything about France's homicide rate, and hence haven't said anything about it.
Might want to look into it.

Quote:
I said, your traction with comparing specifically London homicide to anything in the US isn't going to get you anywhere. It isn't even close. So, I'd start elsewhere if I were you.
Perhaps you would care to comment? This would never happen in the US and is common in the UK.

The UK may have a lower rate now. It won't if the trend continues. For the past few centuries the UK was only home to the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish (sorry if I missed anyone) who all mostly stayed in their own corners while the US is made up of all those, plus several African nationalities, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Polish, Italian, Iranian, Indian, etc. etc. It doesn't take a lot of brain power to spot the difference or work out why that might be an issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The cop has been arrested for murder


I'm betting this one doesn't end with a hug.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:

Don't have the foggiest what your point is.

The Doctor wrote:

Then I'll make it simple. Comparing raw numbers, as you did in your opening post, is pointless. It fails to account for differences in culture, like US police not being afraid to do their job or suicide by cop, differences in populations, and if the majority are justified or not. Spoiler alert: most lethal force cases in the US are justified by threats to officers and or other people.


Point taken. I think it's a rudimental difference.
Race matters. lol.
Race makes the culture. The closer we are in regard to culture the closer we are, when it comes to genetics.
Cultural diversed groups makes a lot of a clusterfuck to happen. Like nitroglycerin and a chockwave.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
The police are not doing their job, ergo a lack of policing, because they are afraid of people like you calling them racist. Actually quite a pervasive problem in the UK that is not limited to Rotherham.

I don't care why they are not doing their job. The only thing that matters is that they are not doing it.


Outside of this incident, or incidences like this, you have, my guess, no evidence that UK police "aren't doing their job". But on top of that, you certainly have no case for this being the basis of why so few people get shot be police in the UK. So, you have to fundamental assertions for which you don't have evidence.

If this was broadly the case, why are their so few homicides in England? are murderers also not doing their job in the UK? I guess brexit affects all.

it of course matters why they aren't doing their job. If you don't understand a problem, you can't solve it. Unless your only point is finger pointing.

Quote:
Of course, and 2019 figures are following suit. Not that you would care to look up data that proves your assertions wrong.


Oh I love that. That's just hilarious. Are you accusing me of cherrypicking data when your assertion was only true for February 2018? I gave you data for 7 years, and I didn't give you more not because it doesn't support my point, but because I was being lazy. For reference, here it is.

For London and for for NYC. You can go back 20 years or so I think if you wish. So, you can just keep clinging on to the fact that on some Wednesday in 2014 London had more murders than New York, but that's not meaningful.

you know, when you are this wrong and this deep in the hole, don't keep digging. Just admit it.

Quote:
Then I'll make it simple. Comparing raw numbers, as you did in your opening post, is pointless. It fails to account for differences in culture, like US police not being afraid to do their job or suicide by cop, differences in populations, and if the majority are justified or not. Spoiler alert: most lethal force cases in the US are justified by threats to officers and or other people.

You are refusing to accept that reality. These are not innocent people being killed. Those are outliers. Screaming about raw numbers doesn't address the issue in the slightest.


Comparing raw numbers beg the question: why is the rate 100x worse in the US? I agree, the problem isn't that innocent people are routinely getting killed (unlike this case), but why are the US police doing this more? Again, your silly assertion that it's because UK police aren't doing their job has no basis.

Quote:
Rotherham still hasn't been addressed. Need I say more? A report concludes a horrific abuse is occurring and... nothing happens.


Yes, of course you need to say more. The fact that you take that as proof of a much broader problem is telling.

Quote:
But I'll play. US according to the BJS: about 2 per thousand or 1 in 500. The 2006–07 Crime Survey for England and Wales (formerly the British Crime Survey) reports that 1 in every 200 women were raped in that period. That would be 5 in 1000. Do I win? :roll:


Similar numbers, though worse in the UK. ok. What does that prove exactly? Which assertion of mine is incorrect in light of this?

Why don't you use more recent numbers than 2006-2007? Because they are available and appear to contradict what you are saying. See here (where the rate seems to be about bang on the US rate, under certain assumptions (like most of those rapes are against women etc etc)

Quote:
Quote:
I don't know anything about France's homicide rate, and hence haven't said anything about it.
Might want to look into it.


ok. Could you remind me what that has to do with this discussion?

Quote:
This would never happen in the US and is common in the UK.


I live in London. It is not descending into a lawless dangerous place. What would never happen in the US? homicides? knife homicides? Still much lower than in the US.

Quote:
The UK may have a lower rate now. It won't if the trend continues. For the past few centuries the UK was only home to the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish (sorry if I missed anyone) who all mostly stayed in their own corners while the US is made up of all those, plus several African nationalities, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Polish, Italian, Iranian, Indian, etc. etc. It doesn't take a lot of brain power to spot the difference or work out why that might be an issue.


Ok nostradamus. It sounds like you have never been to London. London can bat with the best of them in mixed demographics. Africans, Indians, Poles, Greeks, Spanish etc etc, they are all here.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
...

You don't care about people's lives. You care about doing away with guns.


Actually I do care about people's lives. It disgusts and scares me when this happens. And you are right, I hate guns. I don't hide it.

But just because I hate guns doesn't mean things like this shouldn't bother YOU.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't her own home.

Those of us that read more than the headline would know it was her mother's home she was tending to while her mother was in the hospital.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Actually I do care about people's lives.

HORSESHIT. If you gave a damn about people's lives in general, you'd be knee-jerking over an assortment of other things.

juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.

juniper wrote:
And you are right, I hate guns. I don't hide it.

I figured that out when I realized that your morality detector is keyed entirely on how people die.

juniper wrote:
But just because I hate guns doesn't mean things like this shouldn't bother YOU.

This incident is WAY down on the list of things that trouble me about the world we live in.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
Actually I do care about people's lives.

HORSESHIT. If you gave a damn about people's lives in general, you'd be knee-jerking over an assortment of other things.

juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.

juniper wrote:
And you are right, I hate guns. I don't hide it.

I figured that out when I realized that your morality detector is keyed entirely on how people die.

juniper wrote:
But just because I hate guns doesn't mean things like this shouldn't bother YOU.

This incident is WAY down on the list of things that trouble me about the world we live in.

I'm having a really hard time following your argument. What does the a driver fleeing police and being arrested have to do with anyone's position on guns?

And why all the personal attacks on juniper? He disagrees with you on policy. You have no reason to conclude that he doesn't care about peoples lives, or that his "morality detector" (whatever that is) only depends on how people die. It is much more likely that he does care about peoples lives, but disagrees with you on the policies that best protect lives. It is much more likely that his "morality detector" is actually not that different than yours, and that he cares about how many people die more than he cares how they die.

Instead of assuming that anyone you disagree with is a horrible person, try assuming that they are a decent person, and try to understand why a decent person would be making the arguments you are hearing. You will have more interesting conversations and learn more.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
HORSESHIT. If you gave a damn about people's lives in general, you'd be knee-jerking over an assortment of other things.


uh. ok. I don't quite understand the content of this statement. Not sure what is "knee jerk" about this, and, if so, why that implies I should be knee jerking about other things.

Quote:
juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.


Uh. um. that's bad? Some clearly crazy woman probably should be behind bars? did I get the answer right?

However, I am mystified what that has to do with the OP. Am I supposed to find and list all the things that I think are bad? and I missed this one? or you think it is worse? or the pattern is worse? I really don't understand the point of it.

I can, however, tell you why I think police killing people, and especially killing people in their homes while playing video games, is more disgusting and scary. The state has a monopoly on violence, so it has to have extra high standards for when that violence should be used. I object to state violence because in some ways the state is an extension of us all; if we allow this to continue in a republic, we are in some small way complicit, especially if we stay silent about it. I think not only should mistakes like this be super rare (by many measures they are, but probably not rare enough), but something is wrong if the state is routinely doing this, even if most individual cases are justified.

Quote:
I figured that out when I realized that your morality detector is keyed entirely on how people die.
Nope.

Quote:
This incident is WAY down on the list of things that trouble me about the world we live in.


I get it. You don't care. You are concerned about bigger things. No one is compelling you to care. I am just surprised that you don't care.

rickk wrote:
Instead of assuming that anyone you disagree with is a horrible person, try assuming that they are a decent person, and try to understand why a decent person would be making the arguments you are hearing. You will have more interesting conversations and learn more.


Every conservative is trying to take money from the poor and give it to corporations and every liberal wants to spend your money on bird killing wind farms.

Discourse now seems to start by ascribing the least charitable interpretation to your opponent's opinion, even when there is ample evidence that that interpretation is incorrect. In this case, I am well known to be anti-gun here, but several points above about my motives and what I know about what's going on (yes, I know, most police shootings are, certainly legally, justified) are just wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.
Me disgusts it more than juniper. That is why I would never visit the USA, while I know there are open doors and windows everywhere in Canada.
...and in Sweden, where there is an "immigration catastrophe" (Fox News), there are doors open also.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.
Me disgusts it more than juniper. That is why I would never visit the USA, while I know there are open doors and windows everywhere in Canada.
...and in Sweden, where there is an "immigration catastrophe" (Fox News), there are doors open also.

Interesting take. I was attempting to point out the involvement of alcohol in thousands of deaths each year, deaths that don't seem to get anyone riled up.

But I can understand your interpretation as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
every liberal wants to spend your money on bird killing wind farms.

I just enjoy killing birds.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I can, however, tell you why I think police killing people, and especially killing people in their homes while playing video games, is more disgusting and scary. The state has a monopoly on violence, so it has to have extra high standards for when that violence should be used. I object to state violence because in some ways the state is an extension of us all; if we allow this to continue in a republic, we are in some small way complicit, especially if we stay silent about it. I think not only should mistakes like this be super rare (by many measures they are, but probably not rare enough), but something is wrong if the state is routinely doing this, even if most individual cases are justified.


That's a pretty enlightened sentiment.

However, in some places, the state is unable to exercise a monopoly on violence. https://apnews.com/8667eb354bcc4af6bce4dc599db9b109

And in others, it shares it with at least certain individuals, i.e. all of the ccw permit holders, or like in Vermont, those not setting out to commit a crime, without a permit.

In all cases, less violence is better, not through weakness and acquiescence, but rather from strength and an abiding sense of respect for each other.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
It disgusts and scares me when this happens.

WHY?! What about this? That's one of literally thousands of such incidents this year.
Me disgusts it more than juniper. That is why I would never visit the USA, while I know there are open doors and windows everywhere in Canada.
...and in Sweden, where there is an "immigration catastrophe" (Fox News), there are doors open also.

Interesting take. I was attempting to point out the involvement of alcohol in thousands of deaths each year, deaths that don't seem to get anyone riled up.

But I can understand your interpretation as well.
:lol:
@wswartzendruber
If you want to go direction off-topic
make it in a more explicit kind of way.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
In all cases, less violence is better, not through weakness and acquiescence, but rather from strength and an abiding sense of respect for each other.

++

You, sir, possess a capacity for articulation that I simply do not.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
shitty things are happening in your country. Innocent people are being shot by the police.

You don't have to care. But that's weird.

Whoah. Wait a minute there. How did you make the leap from "shot" to "innocent" there.

You are never going to persuade anybody of anything if you can't put your thoughts into logically coherent, semi-rational statements. You sound like a shrieking zealot who hasn't stopped to give the slightest thought to what he's spouting off about.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The police shot someone dead in Boise this morning. I even drove by the scene and saw two cars still there a few hours later. The news said she pulled a gun on them.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously innocent!! Or, at least relevant!!
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