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Amity88
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Posts: 265
Location: Third planet from the Sun
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 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:38 am Post subject: Systemd: Do we have any long term plans to avoid dependency? |
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At this point of time, I'm sure all of us are aware of the pros and cons of the SytemD shim. With it engulfing more tools by the day, I fear that eventually it may become a hard dependency for some of the tools that we use regularly. My question is basically:
1. What is the current level of systemd encroachment?
2. How can we avoid the said encroachment in the future? which tools/software should we focus our efforts on? I'm willing to help in whatever way I can.
I got a little worried looking at some of the alternatives:
1. Eudevd vs devd (how long can we maintain the fork given SystemD's increased complexity)
2. SysRescueCD switched to SystemD (Old versions work for now but may become useless in the future. Can we invest our effort into making our livecd better?)
3. I heard that SystemD is planning to change the /home directory structure (not yet verified). If the user applications start expecting a different directory structure now, it'll make it even harder to avoid SystemD.
Honestly, they probably should just call it what it is : Lindows: Poettering's personal OS 
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9388
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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There are various multi-page threads available to you regarding all the different topics you kick off there. Some even still on the same page in this subforum.
It's written `systemd` noncapitalised, btw. |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 4068
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:42 am Post subject: Time will tell... |
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| Amity88 wrote: | | 3. I heard that SystemD is planning to change the /home directory structure (not yet verified). If the user applications start expecting a different directory structure now, it'll make it even harder to avoid SystemD. |
AFAIK systemd-homed will not change the structure, but mount encrypted rw image to $HOME. Then there is some json configuration for it (Well I guess it's better than xml, but why not something like toml or ini -like which systems uses already on its unit files?). I don't see it becoming mandatory, but optional for those who can and need to have identical home directories on many machines.
Anyway if systemd was someday mandatory, then I'd need to see if it's then usable enough or move to BSD. I've been looking at DragonflyBSD for quite a long time. Oh well...
Anyway I wouldn't "panic" about systemd, at least yet.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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sitquietly
Apprentice
Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 151
Location: On the Wolf River, Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Time will tell... |
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| Zucca wrote: | | ...Anyway if systemd was someday mandatory, then I'd need to see if it's then usable enough or move to BSD. I've been looking at DragonflyBSD for quite a long time... |
Had to laugh at myself ... I'm here because I've been running OpenBSD Gnome 3.32 with also a bunch of kde apps s.a. kile and kate and kdevelop. I'm back here in Gentoo because I'm checking to see if it's useable enough to provide an alternate to OpenBSD so that I can keep an open mind about Linux. BTW, I'm re-finding that Gentoo is a great system with OpenRC.  |
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GDH-gentoo
Veteran
Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1875
Location: South America
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Amity88 wrote: | | 1. What is the current level of systemd encroachment? |
See for yourself. At the moment, I feel that perception that systemd "is everywhere" comes mostly from users of binary-based distributions with developers that like to tick every checkbox they can find that says "systemd". Gentoo is doing fine for now.
| Amity88 wrote: | | 2. How can we avoid the said encroachment in the future? which tools/software should we focus our efforts on? I'm willing to help in whatever way I can. |
Track the upstreams of the software packages that you care about? I could add "write and distribute quality service definitions suitable for the boot and shutdown sequences, for all the nice alternative init systems that are already available today", but won't do it because there are quite a few people that don't think that there was anything wrong with the old ones to begin with.
| Amity88 wrote: | | 1. Eudevd vs devd (how long can we maintain the fork given SystemD's increased complexity) |
The fact that systemd's complexity as a whole comes from it getting bigger and bigger doesn't mean that individual components change or get complicated at the same rate.
| Amity88 wrote: | | 2. SysRescueCD switched to SystemD (Old versions work for now but may become useless in the future. Can we invest our effort into making our livecd better?) |
Gentoo has been offering a minimal installation CD like since forever.
| Amity88 wrote: | | 3. I heard that SystemD is planning to change the /home directory structure (not yet verified). If the user applications start expecting a different directory structure now, it'll make it even harder to avoid SystemD. |
What Zucca said. If you are interested, read this. |
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Chiitoo
Administrator
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2784
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Amity88 wrote: | [...]
2. SysRescueCD switched to SystemD (Old versions work for now but may become useless in the future. Can we invest our effort into making our livecd better?)
[...] |
They also switched to Arch Linux (probably why it's now using systemd?). :\
I think I had some issues with the last Gentoo versions somewhere, too, but the Gentoo "Admin CD" worked a treat!
There's also a fork (I forget if it ended up being a direct fork) discussed in the SystemRescueCD quits Gentoo moves to ArchLinux topic.
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marcthe12
n00b
Joined: 04 Sep 2019
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Another option will be look and standardize a small subset of systemd API and a few deps. especially some of the ones in elogind and udevd. Atleast then a clean room impl of does API is possible, may by other standalone daemons or other init system.
A good place to start is to look into rootles Kms Xorg or Wayland and see what's parts of systemd are use when the use flag is on. |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10780
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Chiitoo wrote: | | ...but the Gentoo "Admin CD" worked a treat! |
I missed that addition. How long has it been around? Will have to try it.
- John
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Chiitoo
Administrator
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 2784
Location: Here and Away Again
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | Chiitoo wrote: | | ...but the Gentoo "Admin CD" worked a treat! |
I missed that addition. How long has it been around? Will have to try it.
- John |
Around 2012 I believe.
See your post here for a lead. :]
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10780
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. 
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