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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Freedom of Speech in Two Constitutions Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Of course the left is anti-freedom. Who wants to limit speech? ...

Muso wrote:
Turns out liberals are the real authoritarians.
Muso thinks,
every limitation of that fundamental right Freedom of Speech looses all freedom in that country and brings an authoritarian regime.

I looked into the
U.S. Constitution wrote:
"Article [I] (Amendment 1 - Freedom of expression and religion) 13
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Far more complicated in the
German Constitution wrote:
Article 1
(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.

(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.
.....
.....
Article 5
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures, and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honour.

(3) Arts and sciences, research and teaching shall be free. The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution.
Not there is an absolute "Freedom of Speech". It only is a tool to protect "Human Dignity" as most importand value. That means if any usage of "Freedom of Speech" jeopardizes "Human Dignity" it must be limited. And there are many limits, I can tell you. You might think I live in an authoritarian country. But it does feel free to live in Germany.
One generation before this very limiting constitution Germany had another with total "Freedom of Speech". But it empowered Hitler using his hate speech against jewish citizens. Not only speech but a whole bunch of magazines containing hatetred against all neighboring peoples. It was so ugly that christians hated Hitler right from start. And others who could afford it exiled.
With all authority of all intellectuals by the full knowledge how "Freedom of Speech" brought the end of Freedom and the extinction of people, and million more dead bodies to larger countries , Germans gave themself this constitution. And we feel free. Many americans who live here feel free.

Edit:
Sorry, forgot to provide German Constitution english translated
Here the description of the german system of Law and Order
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Last edited by ulenrich on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're conflating speech and action. Those are two separate things.

It was not free speech which caused Germany the problems leading to the second world war, it was the violence.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first step to control thought is to control speech. That is what the regressive left hopes to achieve. The elimination of ideas contrary to their own.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The German constitution does not protect speech at all. Anything offensive could be interpreted to violate "Human dignity" and therefore be banned. Inoffensive speech by definition does not require protection. Actually that document is horribly written. It sets out platitudes and not hard legal principles. I certainly hope it is simply lost in translation as I have neither the time nor the skill to read German legalease.

True freedom of speech is the freedom to be offensive. Stating there are only two genders may cause certain persons to erupt in absolute horror but unless the right to do so is protected there is no right to discuss gender. The same goes for race, sexual orientation, etc. At one time suggesting that white people and Asian people could enter into a marriage was considered absolutely disgusting. Yet after a lot of talk, some of it quite contentious, it is now perfectly acceptable socially.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: Freedom of Speech in Two Constitutions Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Muso wrote:
Turns out liberals are the real authoritarians.


Also, that was the title of the link, and I explained in the very same post how they were wrong to refer to leftists and progressives as "liberal".
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich:
>Muso thinks,
>every limitation of that fundamental right Freedom of Speech looses all freedom in that country and brings an authoritarian regime.
Of course he is absolutely right.
But what you have to consider there are gradations of the authoritarian.


>(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws
Amazingly, you even quote the crucial point 5.2 that opens the door to *ANY* form of state arbitrariness.


>Not there is an absolute "Freedom of Speech". It only is a tool to protect "Human Dignity" as most importand value. That means if any usage of "Freedom of Speech" jeopardizes "Human Dignity" it must be limited. And there are many limits, I can tell you.
You might think I live in an authoritarian country. But it does feel free to live in Germany.

So there are many limits, but it feels free for you? Did you not notice the contradiction in your own statements?
That's because you are adapted to the system! The same thing the people in other "mild" authoritarian states did!


>One generation before this very limiting constitution Germany had another with total "Freedom of Speech". But it empowered Hitler using his hate speech against jewish citizens. Not only speech but a whole bunch of magazines containing hatetred against all neighboring peoples. It was so ugly that christians hated Hitler right from start.
Rarely read such nonsense.
At that time there was no longer freedom of speech, there were no more real opposition media, because all the leading real leftists and communists were already in the concentration camp, were killed or were on the run. The "bourgeois" opposition and their followers has adapted quickly to the new changed conditions. Almost the same as with the pseudo left SPD.


>With all authority of all intellectuals by the full knowledge how "Freedom of Speech" brought the end of Freedom and the extinction of people, and million more dead bodies to larger countries , Germans gave themself this constitution.
This is just disgusting and a joke!
This current provisional(!) "constitution" (Grundgesetz - "Basic Law" and yes it is provisional) was ultimately dictated(!) by the Western occupying powers, just as the GDR was dictated by the Soviet Union.

Oh and the last Article 146 says:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_146.html
This Basic Law, which applies after the completion of the unity and freedom of Germany for the entire German people, loses its validity on the day on which a constitution comes into force, which was decided by the German people in free decision.
Since 1990, we as a population have been denied to give us our OWN new constitution.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch this for ~90 seconds, it is funny and sad at the same time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMuWLUxtGg&feature=youtu.be&t=1480

The most important point here: She says that she has studied politics and the SYSTEM! The SYSTEM!?!
With that she admits, without her having understood it herself: there is only limited freedom of speech here. She adjusted to the system.
There is only a narrow corridor which is allowed to say and the state sets this here! And this allowed corridor is getting narrower.
Especially with the help of the gleichgeschalteten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung) state and corporate media.

I can also recommend watching here talk from the beginning, this allows a deep insight into the brainwashed and adapted to the system brain of a person on worked in german news media.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frank9999 wrote:
Watch this for ~90 seconds, it is funny and sad at the same time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMuWLUxtGg&feature=youtu.be&t=1480

The most important point here: She says that she has studied politics and the SYSTEM! The SYSTEM!?!
With that she admits, without her having understood it herself: there is only limited freedom of speech here. She adjusted to the system.
Really funny, she claims to have studied politics in Germany! But truely there is jail time for some speech:
2007, the Amtsgericht in Cottbus sentenced Mahler to six months' imprisonment
After her free of charge enlisting to study politics she didn't feel any limitations doing her writings as journalist. As I said in the initial post
Quote:
And we feel free. Many americans who live here feel free.
98% of all germans think we fully have "Freedom of Speech".


PS: I have edited the initial post inserting a link to the german constitution in english language
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
The German constitution does not protect speech at all. Anything offensive could be interpreted to violate "Human dignity" and therefore be banned.
You might think so reading the
Quote:
Article 5 (2)These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws
Any coming legislature could purge Human Rights by changing the laws?
We have a powerfull constitutional court, which can revoke any law and any change made to the constitution. As the expression of thought is part of the untouchable human dignity they have halted the legislature many times. In fact they criticize the legislature and the government on many occasions every year.
Most people in Germany have no glimpse they don't have unlimited Freedom of Speech. Our constitution is very sophisticated in this regard.
frank9999 wrote:
This current provisional(!) constitution ... was ultimately dictated(!) by the Western occupying powers
Which of the french,british or american general responsible at the time dictated the constitution? I would like to thank for all the thought put in this sophisticated construction of the german constitution! Not only me, but all germans would like to build a great monument for this general!

In fact the generals allowed the german politicians in 1948 to go forward with a democraticly constructed country and to propose a constitution for this purpose. Though I am not aware of any sentence they influenced. It was thought a provisional constitution, because the people under sowjet occupation could not take part in any referendum about the constitution. After the wall fell and Germany reunited everyone was happy with the constitution. But every now and then the legislature does change the constitution with a qualified majority needed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

98% of all germans think we fully have "Freedom of Speech".



:lol: :lol: :lol:
2.Mai 2019
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/allensbach-umfrage-ueber-meinungsfreiheit-und-kritische-themen-16200724.html

Quote:
The majority also attests that Germany has a broader right to freedom of expression, albeit with restrictions. On the one hand, the population clearly distinguishes between expressions of opinion in public space and in the private sphere, and on the other hand, according to the impression of the vast majority, the freedom of opinion guaranteed in itself is highly subject-dependent. Nearly two-thirds of citizens are convinced that today one has to be "very careful about which topics one expresses oneself", because there are many unwritten laws, which opinions are acceptable and admissible.



This Germany is a true lighthouse of freedom of speech, only that this has no more light.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I certainly hope it is simply lost in translation as I have neither the time nor the skill to read German
I have added the english translation at the end of this thread initial post for you.

The first sentence is translated weakly I think:
"Human dignity shall be inviolable"
in german language feels stronger
"Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar" - "... is untouchable"
is a crazy statement, when thinking how vulnerable every human being eventually is.

Quote:
True freedom of speech is the freedom to be offensive.
There are thousands of court decisions in Germany taking sides for the satyre, critics, journalistic articles. Sometimes wrongly in the end:
Once the most famous tv weatherman was wrongly accused of rape. After years in court he now slowly makes his comeback. But he accuses the press to have assaulted his dignity when reporting the case.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

frank9999 wrote:
This Germany is a true lighthouse of freedom of speech, only that this has no more light.
You might have plenty of examples where judges fined or gave jail sentences? I gave one example above.
We don't talk how to befit in public sphere nor about political correctness. You can find millions of youtube tv examples where they overlay beep in the U.S.

And yes: By having incriminated their post on Twitter/Facebook more people feel the limitations of Freedom of Speech. That is funny but not this topic.

@frank9999 think of it: No constitution nor the exclamation of unlimited Freedom of Speech can save you there, if the whole system is rigged, like in Coldwar times
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st, American and British people who have lived in Germany disagree that your freedom of speech comes close to what is held in the US or UK, which is saying something considering how bad the UK is.

Second, Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar does sound nice, but think about it. Where is "human dignity" ever defined? That is the problem. There is literally no teeth to it because it doesn't mean anything. It just sounds good.

Quote:
Once the most famous tv weatherman was wrongly accused of rape. After years in court he now slowly makes his comeback. But he accuses the press to have assaulted his dignity when reporting the case.
And strangely you highlight exactly the problem.

The weatherman asserts that because press did their job and reported on facts as they became available his human dignity suffered. In other words, the press cannot have freedom of the press because it harms his human dignity and their rights have to be curtailed.

That argument can be used to ban any public speech. Two genders? That harms the human dignity of transgender. Banned. Criticize Muslims? Banned. All easily done because it violates someone's "human dignity."

Your legal system might draw that line somewhere, but your constitution does not.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdcnQISuF_Y
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdcnQISuF_Y


<french voice>
Seven hours later...and a few minutes
</french voice>
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Degree of freedom of speech, i think is best evaluated at what some would call borderline cases. For that we can try to define some test cases and see (at least as a thought experiment) what happens

For a start lets examine 2 fairly innocent cases :

1. Instruction for making an explosive is free speech

2. Porn is free speech

In test case 2 i am actually looking not at free speech itself, but at "the right to listen to free speech", which sorta goes together. To the best of my understanding, one should not be required to trade anything to receive the rights. In the case of the German law, think of something like this : Free speech can be limited to protect minors --> The distribution of the porn will only be allowed on DRM'd platform that can verify the identity of the recipient --> can't receive without trading anonimity
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making bombs, I see as an infringement for freedom of speach.
Why? Well, for a first and last thing: Incite violence is the intent of it. People can be hurt/killed/dismembered.
As with marxism and anyother platform. But there is an incentive here. An expression of thought. Must be necessary.
Freedom of speach is not about being safe. It's about dividing about what is and should be. For me it's the most important aspects of it.

Porn in some form do not hurt you. Some does. In some cases it even falls in the folder of art. A very widely used word of and on it's self.
What you mean with porn is all of these. Cannot be falling in the realm of free speach as a concept so wide.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Making bombs, I see as an infringement for freedom of speach.
Why? Well, for a first and last thing: Incite violence is the intent of it. People can be hurt

Porn in some form do not hurt you. Some does.
The line being tested is between incitement of violence and material that is simply objectionable morally.

<soap box>
Personally I'm in favor of total decriminalization of porn where the production was not illegal to all ages. Kids don't care. They think its gross. Teens get it anyway. Besides, I think our society could do with a little more acceptance. We are accepting enough of violence but not sex. One of my favorite fills when I was between about 5 and 7 had so much innuendo that looking back on it is almost embarrassing. But my dad was wise enough to know I wouldn't understand until I was old enough.
</soap box>
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I did some editing, doc....that's on me.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, I see we agree on the basics.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I remember back when I was about 1,5 years old, pounding my own wheel cradle. Hearing my mom nervously laughing, making me look back at her and wonder wtf is she doing that for!?
I was so happy and she ruined it for me.
True story. The age is approximation. It's a stigma and a taboo asking your mother when did I hit that?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Making bombs, I see as an infringement for freedom of speach.
Why? Well, for a first and last thing: Incite violence is the intent of it. People can be hurt/killed/dismembered

One could say the same about the right to bear arms
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashie wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
Making bombs, I see as an infringement for freedom of speach.
Why? Well, for a first and last thing: Incite violence is the intent of it. People can be hurt/killed/dismembered

One could say the same about the right to bear arms


Sorry for going off topic but I immediately thought of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZFjdjvkg8g
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
The weatherman asserts that because press did their job and reported on facts as they became available his human dignity suffered. In other words, the press cannot have freedom of the press because it harms his human dignity and their rights have to be curtailed.

That argument can be used to ban any public speech. Two genders? That harms the human dignity of transgender. Banned. Criticize Muslims? Banned. All easily done because it violates someone's "human dignity."

Your legal system might draw that line somewhere, but your constitution does not.


That's a good thing that people are free to libel and misrepresent with false accusations in the US. Speech is so free there that no one would fear social reprisals and SJW mobs if they dared come into his defense or even contemplate the possibility that the accusation was false and/or made in bad will.

I mean, if the accused was not a democrat. In that case, everybody would look the other way and no outrages would be caused.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashie wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
Making bombs, I see as an infringement for freedom of speach.
Why? Well, for a first and last thing: Incite violence is the intent of it. People can be hurt/killed/dismembered

One could say the same about the right to bear arms


Not really about speach...
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