Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Freedom of Speech in Two Constitutions
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 245
Location: West Bank of the Coast Fork

PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Muso wrote:
frank9999 is right. That is frightening.
Yes, for human beings like Greta. Probabilities to get murdered is rising for publicly seen persons with a crowd frightend loosing their lifestyle.


Surely she'd rise on the third day anyway.
:lol:
_________________
The Future Ain't What It Used To Be

Christmas Lights Are Like Jeffrey Epstein, They Don't Hang Themselves.

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1389

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some 30 years ago - just 4 days before the fall of this perfect german wall
the largest demonstration happened in East Berlin ! Not only in Berlin but in little towns also the people showed up for freedom of speech
_________________
the thread ain't easily find an end
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2600

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how their kids and grand kids are lining up to demand it be taken away because it is too offensive.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Funny how their kids and grand kids are lining up to demand it be taken away because it is too offensive.


++

It's incredibly sad. I blame the media and education system. Both are over run with lefties.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1389

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Funny how their kids and grand kids are lining up to demand it be taken away because it is too offensive.


++

??
_________________
the thread ain't easily find an end
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People don't actually care about freedom of speech. They care about survival and reproduction and what is convenient to them.
People care about freedom of speech only when it serves their survival agendas.
This truth applies to both the left and the right.

Lions don't hide their survival agendas in freedom of speech or animal rights. Humans often mistake their personal survival agendas as the greater good.
There is only 2% genetic difference between the dumbest chimp at a zoo and an average human. Talking chimps(humans) cannot differentiate personal survival from the greater good without guidance.

That said, it seems to me that freedom of speech can serve the greater good when it's regulated or moderated well.
We don't actually want total freedom which allows a dictator to cut off my balls and make me feed him grapes. No freedom and total freedom are one and the same. We want regulated freedom.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
People don't actually care about freedom of speech.


8O

crocket wrote:
That said, it seems to me that freedom of speech can serve the greater good when it's regulated or moderated well.


8O 8O
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 245
Location: West Bank of the Coast Fork

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:

That said, it seems to me that freedom of speech can serve the greater good when it's regulated or moderated well.

Collectivists. :roll:

And who moderates and regulates? The State? I for one do not want to live in China or Saudi Arabia.
_________________
The Future Ain't What It Used To Be

Christmas Lights Are Like Jeffrey Epstein, They Don't Hang Themselves.

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
And who moderates and regulates? The State?

I for one do not want to live in China or Saudi Arabia.


The reality is that as long as you are in society, you cannot avoid moderation. At least, you cannot at this stage of cosmic evolution. It's not going away anytime soon.
You actually want good moderation. Without moderation, this forum would soon fall into the hands of trolls.
Without moderation, MMORPG servers will become unuseable very soon.
Without moderation, you get dictators. Without moderation, you cannot get the benefits of VISA arbitration.

If you have no moderation, your quality of life becomes worse.

The trick to good moderation is competition and the level of consciousness. If moderators are low in consciousness, they might seek only money or might be stuck in dogmas.
When moderators are low in consciousness and there is little competition, you get china or saudi arabia.

You don't want to be stuck with a bad moderator.
The answer is you choose your moderators and you want more competition among moderators.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
The reality is that as long as you are in society, you cannot avoid moderation.


My deeply cherished first amendment says that sentiment can go f*** itself.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
My deeply cherished first amendment says that sentiment can go f*** itself.


It's not like I like being dragged and bossed around by governments. I'm just stating that authorities(e.g., governments, game masters, ...) are not going away anytime soon.
Overly-sensitive open source maintainers who ban you for little inconveniences are not going away anytime soon.
It'll take a lot of time for individuals to be largely freed. It's wiser to look for what we can do now. I'm not interested in the far future when I am probably dead.
We can choose our authorities and try to increase competition among them.
If an open source maintainer pisses on people, you can find another open source program.
If a government pisses you off, you can find another government. Movement is life. You don't want to be stuck with bad authorities.
Maybe, create more good presidential candidates from which to choose.

Personally, as long as I am freed from all three major duties of this planet, I will be largely fine.

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription


I agree with none of that.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
crocket wrote:

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription


I agree with none of that.


Do you want to be free from all of them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
Muso wrote:
crocket wrote:

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription


I agree with none of that.


Do you want to be free from all of them?


I am. Jury duty because I can tell how guilty someone is by their accent :P
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1389

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
People don't actually care about freedom of speech. They care about survival and reproduction and what is convenient to them.
People care about freedom of speech only when it serves their survival agendas.
This truth applies to both the left and the right.
Oddly most humans take their survival as an important pre-condition. I think it is the reasonable position.
Though there are fighters shouting "Freedom or Death"!
But isn't that just like a poker game tactics "All in" - lifting the probabilities to win both?

Quote:
That said, it seems to me that freedom of speech can serve the greater good when it's regulated or moderated well.
... We want regulated freedom.
For long judges have decided it is a lawful act to curse on politicians in social media because it is a kind of opionionated say the politicians have to tolerate in Germany. Also musicians and other artists in the public eye weren't able to get their addresses hidden. The police just said to such demand: "And what did the poster do in real life? Have you been beaten already? If not you don't get any help from us. Nor do we hide your location."

Our legislature now begins to handle the social media like real life: Death threads should end in prison and cursing ad hominem should come with fines.
Question to the american guy: Isn't it forbidden in the U.S. to call for criminal action?
In my humble opinion a death thread is like appealing to do a crime, isn't it?
_________________
the thread ain't easily find an end


Last edited by ulenrich on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
crocket wrote:

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription


I agree with none of that.


Make it all voluntary, and then:
https://i.imgflip.com/140tle.jpg
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mrbassie
Guru
Guru


Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 564

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
crocket wrote:

That said, it seems to me that freedom of speech can serve the greater good when it's regulated or moderated well.

Collectivists. :roll:

And who moderates and regulates? The State?


Twitter, obviously.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 245
Location: West Bank of the Coast Fork

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
Old School wrote:
And who moderates and regulates? The State?

I for one do not want to live in China or Saudi Arabia.


The reality is that as long as you are in society, you cannot avoid moderation. At least, you cannot at this stage of cosmic evolution. It's not going away anytime soon.
You actually want good moderation. Without moderation, this forum would soon fall into the hands of trolls.
Without moderation, MMORPG servers will become unuseable very soon.
Without moderation, you get dictators. Without moderation, you cannot get the benefits of VISA arbitration.

If you have no moderation, your quality of life becomes worse.

The trick to good moderation is competition and the level of consciousness. If moderators are low in consciousness, they might seek only money or might be stuck in dogmas.
When moderators are low in consciousness and there is little competition, you get china or saudi arabia.

You don't want to be stuck with a bad moderator.
The answer is you choose your moderators and you want more competition among moderators.
You conveniently did not answer the question. Who or what organization is to regulate and moderate my speech and how is to be enforced. In your authoritarian, collectivist, censored world am I to be put in jail if I say something immoderate, or just taken out and shot?

Jesus, I sure hope crocket is not an American.
_________________
The Future Ain't What It Used To Be

Christmas Lights Are Like Jeffrey Epstein, They Don't Hang Themselves.

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Muso wrote:
crocket wrote:

* Mandatory public schooling
* Jury Duty
* Military Conscription


I agree with none of that.


Make it all voluntary, and then:
https://i.imgflip.com/140tle.jpg


:D

That's a better solution.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You conveniently did not answer the question. Who or what organization is to regulate and moderate my speech and how is to be enforced. In your authoritarian, collectivist, censored world am I to be put in jail if I say something immoderate, or just taken out and shot?

Jesus, I sure hope crocket is not an American.


I think you are attacking straw man.
Which organization regulates your speech depends on where you live and where you frequent. And, you can choose to move somewhere else or choose another forum.
Unless you are in china or north korea or muslim zones, it's very unlikely for you to be thrown in prison or get shot for saying something inconvenient.
It's your responsibility to find and recognize communities that have good sensible rules that you agree with. Even if you were born in north korea, you can choose to leave north korea.

You have unrealistic expectations about reality. You already don't have total freedom of speech on this forum or in america. You certainly don't have total freedom on subreddits, either. USA is not exactly a land of freedom you imagine it to be.
Any non-trivial group settings have some rules created by your predecessors.

Maybe, in the far future, humans will evolve into alien species that can operate largely without authorities.

It may seem to you that I want this to happen. I actually want more freedom and autonomy for individuals. But, to actually create more freedom and more autonomy, you have to admit the reality and start from it.
Admitting that you can't wish them away is not the same thing as wanting them to stay. Talking about the practical next steps for you to become freer is not the same thing as wanting authorities to limit you.
Practically speaking, the best way to become freer at this stage of cosmic evolution is to choose your authorities and develop your skills to become financially independent. You can even create authorities that you have some control over.
For example, youtube video creators grouped together and created new video platforms to avoid youtube's non-sensical crackdowns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 245
Location: West Bank of the Coast Fork

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
Old School wrote:
You conveniently did not answer the question. Who or what organization is to regulate and moderate my speech and how is to be enforced. In your authoritarian, collectivist, censored world am I to be put in jail if I say something immoderate, or just taken out and shot?

Jesus, I sure hope crocket is not an American.


I think you are attacking straw man.
Which organization regulates your speech depends on where you live and where you frequent. And, you can choose to move somewhere else or choose another forum.
Unless you are in china or north korea or muslim zones, it's very unlikely for you to be thrown in prison or get shot for saying something inconvenient.
It's your responsibility to find and recognize communities that have good sensible rules that you agree with. Even if you were born in north korea, you can choose to leave north korea.

You have unrealistic expectations about reality. You already don't have total freedom of speech on this forum or in america. You certainly don't have total freedom on subreddits, either. USA is not exactly a land of freedom you imagine it to be.
Any non-trivial group settings have some rules created by your predecessors.

Maybe, in the far future, humans will evolve into alien species that can operate largely without authorities.

It may seem to you that I want this to happen. I actually want more freedom and autonomy for individuals. But, to actually create more freedom and more autonomy, you have to admit the reality and start from it.
Admitting that you can't wish them away is not the same thing as wanting them to stay. Talking about the practical next steps for you to become freer is not the same thing as wanting authorities to limit you.
Practically speaking, the best way to become freer at this stage of cosmic evolution is to choose your authorities and develop your skills to become financially independent. You can even create authorities that you have some control over.
For example, youtube video creators grouped together and created new video platforms to avoid youtube's non-sensical crackdowns.
You are prattling along about forums and reddits which, for the most part, are privately owned businesses, and can set their own rules for what is allowed and not. I am talking about political and social speech that is more and more coming under attack by a generation that is anxious to give up basic freedoms. So let me clue you into who moderates and regulates my speech. Me. And as long as I do not shout fire in a theater, or threaten the safety, or incite others to do the same, I will say whatever the fuck I want. You are flippin' naive to believe that those in power would be willing to allow others more freedom, and doubly naive to think people in North Korea can just leave if they want. And I sure as hell do not need you, a perfect stranger, to try and tell me what freedom entails in the USA; my 63 years of experience is far better than anything you would be able to impart. Those 63 years also give me a much better frame of reference as to the erosion of basic rights in my country.
_________________
The Future Ain't What It Used To Be

Christmas Lights Are Like Jeffrey Epstein, They Don't Hang Themselves.

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with that old man yelling at the clouds.

In fact, I join him, harmonized poorly because of our age.

We know that there are societal consequences for expressing unpopular ideas. But our opinions are just that, opinions. We have the right to express them as we wish. The current "cancel culture" is nothing but cancer culture. Unless you are in 100% lockstep with their opinions, they want your voice eliminated from the public square.

This is the point we are making. Opinions must never be banned. Confronted, defended, defeated, or... verified by facts and logic... but never banned.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USA is out of your control. It's wise to let go of what you cannot control. Do your best to increase freedom in USA, but you should also have realistic expectations about USA.
If I wanted more freedom, I would establish myself in several countries so that I cannot be entirely squashed by one single country.

For example, I would establish my online business and open bank accounts in some foreigner-friendly country, marry a foreign woman, and live in my wife's home country.
That way, my wife cannot take unearned money(50% of my asset, or the necessary half) away from me during divorce because my business and my bank accounts are out of her country's control.
If her country wants to rip me off, I can just fly off back to my home country. Perhaps, I can take my kids with me back to my home country.
But, if you are an american, this may not work for you because US federal government can collect tax for your foreign income.

Also, your freedom of speech improves if you spread yourself among several countries. You can use VPN and tor to prevent others from tracking you.

https://flagtheory.com/the-foundation/

This is what I mean by choosing authorities.


Last edited by crocket on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1002
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crocket wrote:
USA is out of your control. It's wise to let go of what you cannot control. Do your best to increase freedom in USA, but you should also have realistic expectations about USA.
If I wanted more freedom, I would establish myself in several countries so that I cannot be entirely squashed by one single country.

For example, I would establish my online business and open bank accounts in some foreigner-friendly country, marry a foreign woman, and live in my wife's home country.
That way, my wife cannot take unearned money away from me during divorce because my business and my bank accounts are out of her country's control.
But, if you are an american, this may not work for you because US federal government can collect tax for your foreign income.

Also, your freedom of speech improves if you spread yourself among several countries. You can use VPN and tor to prevent others from tracking you.

https://flagtheory.com/the-foundation/

This is what I mean by choosing authorities.


I have permanent residency in Japan, so I'm not sure why you're trying to teach me about spreading my roots.

Also, I use more than one VPN and Tor.
_________________
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
"It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes." ~ Senator Ted Stevens describing the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crocket
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
I have permanent residency in Japan, so I'm not sure why you're trying to teach me about spreading my roots.

Also, I use more than one VPN and Tor.


The point is to let go of what you cannot control and focus on what you can control. That way, you get more juice out of your life.
You have little time but a lot of things to do.
I want you to get more juice out of your life. Letting go is a powerful personal development technique.

I think you are lucky since you have permanent residency in japan.

By the way, I'm learning japanese at home. こんにちは.


Last edited by crocket on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum