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erm67
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian.au wrote:

I suspect erm67 may have been quoting figures for 2010 election where Cameron got up on 33-ish percent, and formed a coalition with the Lib Dem's (who had about 22%?), though. In that case it would be proportional that they held 51% of the seats (in coalition) with the Tories in the senior position. That's not exactly first past the post on 31% of the vote, unless you have a compatible block to partner with in Government.


I checked and well I did remember correctly, it was the 2015 election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_Kingdom_general_election#Results


with 36.8% of the votes Cameron got 50.8% of the seats because of the winner takes all electoral system.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
But you don't know what the people want. Maybe next there should be a referendum about the Union as well?


You know, I do know what the people, aka EU Citizens, wanted in regards to Article 17. Perhaps they should have a referend... oh wait, the bill was rushed through several undemocratic processes and a MEP vote with clear irregularities, and now the only hope for the majority of citizens' opinion is a vague Polish legal challenge.

I have no issue criticizing the UK Government or their current policy problems when it comes to democracy, law, and whatnot. I think the Assange situation illustrates very clearly how broken things are, among other recent events. However, it is incredible is to be so partisan, so arrogant, so incredibly smug in regards to issues brought to light by the Brexit process, and to simultaneously pontificate implied superiority with their own political team (EU), completely discounting the comparable issues with said-team, issues that demonstrably have a far greater impact globally.

In other words asturm, you have been left with a drafty frame from what was once your glass house.


Last edited by Morality124 on Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
ian.au wrote:

I suspect erm67 may have been quoting figures for 2010 election where Cameron got up on 33-ish percent, and formed a coalition with the Lib Dem's (who had about 22%?), though.


I checked and well I did remember correctly, it was the 2015 election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_Kingdom_general_election#Results

with 36.8% of the votes Cameron got 50.8% of the seats because of the winner takes all electoral system.


erm67,
Thanks for that, I stand corrected. I still have UK citizenship but I've never voted there or really bothered much with their political system. What alternative system would you propose, though?

Here we have a preferential voting system that delivered happy-clapper ScoMo and the Libs government on 27% of the popular vote. I think that stumbled to about 41% if the minor National Party with whom they are in coalition is counted. They ended up with 77 seats which is about 51% of seats (151 total) on 41% of the vote. In reality though, the senior coalition partner is running the government on 27% of the vote. Would you prefer that? Labor got 100% of the polls by landslide, then delivered 33% of the vote to lose.

Whichever way you cut it, 59% of voters wanted someone else running the place. The era of the clear majority is probably behind us now, no party has sufficient control of the narrative.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
You know, I do know what the people, aka EU Citizens, wanted in regards to Article 17.

We certainly know what you think about it, but asking random Brexiters on the street about Article 17 will give you nothing but blank stares. In other words Morality124, you're just distracting here.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
What a wonderful turn in arguments:
Introducing the 16y old population into general elections for having a stronger rational vote against the crazy old ones.
If your turning to people with no real life experience and absolutely no idea what a hard days work is as "rational" you seriously need to rethink your position. Especially when they are sent through a propaganda education system telling them what to think.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, so you think religion should dictate what is being taught to school children? :lol: You probably don't like communism, your children will learn about communism; do you think that will turn them into communists?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Oh, so you think religion should dictate what is being taught to school children? :lol:
Exactly the opposite. I don't think any religion should be, including progressive religion.

The government has no business trying to teach a moral compass. Particularly teaching pre-pubescent children about sex. No way they can possibly understand the subject. All they can be trained to do is parrot the talking points.

Teaching children that their Muslim community is accepting of homosexuality, which the program does, is a blatant falsehood. The Muslim parents called them out on it.

If you have any doubt that gender as a social construct is total and complete BS I refer you to David Reimer, The boy who received gender reassignment at birth and rejected it by age 14 and committed suicide at age 38. They will not teach about this and have an absolute fit if you bring it up. They are not teaching science. They are teaching politics and religion.
asturm wrote:
You probably don't like communism, your children will learn about communism; do you think that will turn them into communists?
Correct, wrong, and they will try in that order.

Schools do not teach about the millions who starved to death in the collectivization of farms in the USSR. They do not teach about the millions murdered to establish communist regimes. They do not teach about the totalitarian governments, poverty, and police states that come with it.

They will teach that communism is some sort of magic bullet that when implemented right this time will solve everything because something other than communism is responsible for it going wrong everywhere else. Now the popular form of Marxism is to dress it up in gender politics and the progressive stack. It is pure ideology and is most certainly forced on students.


EDIT: By the way, you seem to be unable to differentiate between learning about something and indoctrination. Learning that some people prefer to have sex with people with similar genital arrangements is fact. Learning that one must consider that relationship to be acceptable, normal, or desirable is indoctrination. Do you see the difference?
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
We certainly know what you think about it


Yes, and the EU Citizens who protested, and signed petitions, along with the countless experts given their opinion, the massive amount of internet companies and organizations...

I am curious by this passive aggressive statement (a long string of many by you across this forum I may add)... are you implying that you are in favour of Article 17?

Quote:
but asking random Brexiters on the street about Article 17 will give you nothing but blank stares. In other words Morality124, you're just distracting here.


And this has whatever to do with the point I'm making? To recap, you have repeatedly conducted yourself in an absolutely partisan way in this thread - absolute smugness, arrogance, and self-satisfaction and self-assurance in the implied superiority of the EU over the UK, when it is demonstrable that the EU has no leg to stand on in the aspects you belittle the UK over. You repeatedly mock the UK over its democratic process for example, but yet you have no answer when your partisan "team" has done equivalent if not worse (and far more far-reaching) mockeries of democracy. In taking such a partisan, bubble-enclosed, antagonistic position, you are adding little to the discussion.

It seems in this latest response. you are the one who is distracting from the argument being made.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Schools do not teach about the millions who starved to death in the collectivization of farms in the USSR. They do not teach about the millions murdered to establish communist regimes. They do not teach about the totalitarian governments, poverty, and police states that come with it.
In the 70s we have learned all that with teachers coming freshly from these politicized universities in 1968.
I don't know nothing about schools in America, but in Germany you get the history books with all of that written in. It typically culminates in discussions in every school class about why is Hitler more a devel than Stalin despite his devastating hunger games on the soviet country side. Different views and arguments are appreciated in those classes. It is quiet often taken as an occasion to learn debate here in school.
And debates are in schools if marriages between same sexes are a good thing if you are religiously thinking or not. The teachers like conflicts when there are different views among pupils, because they have a cheap discussion, where they as teachers can lean back and the youngsters learn a lot with discussions.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
And this has whatever to do with the point I'm making? To recap, you have repeatedly conducted yourself in an absolutely partisan way in this thread - absolute smugness, arrogance, and self-satisfaction and self-assurance in the implied superiority of the EU over the UK, ....
@Morality124
I can assure you I was assumed to be dumb and I was self-satisfactorially mocked, because I had (as a lefty) brought up an argument against my normal opinion. In "Off the Wall" you are assumed to be crazy if not partisan. It is a special location here! Moderators know that the case, so you get nothing when clicking the REPORT button!

And in this thread about the Brexit there was a very long celebration against the EU, and very partisan. I thought asturm was just mirroring this one sided arrogance from exactly the other side, because I know his style as moderated from other Gentoo threads.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Schools do not teach about the millions who starved to death in the collectivization of farms in the USSR. They do not teach about the millions murdered to establish communist regimes. They do not teach about the totalitarian governments, poverty, and police states that come with it.
In the 70s we have learned all that with teachers coming freshly from these politicized universities in 1968.
I don't know nothing about schools in America, but in Germany you get the history books with all of that written in. It typically culminates in discussions in every school class about why is Hitler more a devel than Stalin despite his devastating hunger games on the soviet country side. Different views and arguments are appreciated in those classes. It is quiet often taken as an occasion to learn debate here in school.
And debates are in schools if marriages between same sexes are a good thing if you are religiously thinking or not. The teachers like conflicts when there are different views among pupils, because they have a cheap discussion, where they as teachers can lean back and the youngsters learn a lot with discussions.
In that case German schools are teaching better history than English speaking ones from the USA, Canada, and the UK.

In the US, Canada, or UK if you tried to argue against gay marriage in school you will be disciplined for "hate." Indeed, many students are being disciplined in school for supporting Donald Trump as president!

I seriously take no side in that debate. I'm not gay and I did not choose to be attracted to woman, particularly the phenotypes that I am. Given those facts I cannot condemn people for their sexuality and marriage has acquired a legal meaning. The original function of forming a family unit has expanded. However, the value of the family unit still exists. Both sides seem perfectly valid to me. Hopefully this stops anyone from getting annoyed here. (yea, right. Like that was ever going to work.)

The point still stands. 16 year olds cannot be considered informed voters because they have not yet participated in society and are subject to the bias, implicit and explicit, of their schooling environment.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nov 1st, 2019. UK still in the EU.

Visual aid: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-50240015/brexit-all-the-times-britain-had-a-deadline-for-leaving-the-eu-but-didn-t
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
And this has whatever to do with the point I'm making?

"The EU", as represented by the democratically elected members of parliament, regardless of how incidental EU parliament elections are seen in the UK, by majority decision; a decision supported by the two majority parties in the UK anyway, so really a moot topic relative to this thread. Unless you were arguing against me had I been mocking the UK for, let's say, their porn ban, you are nothing but a heckler from the distant back of the crowd. Do you really wonder why you have been ignored so far in this thread?

The Doctor wrote:
EDIT: By the way, you seem to be unable to differentiate between learning about something and indoctrination.

An indoctrination you seem to imply as evident in your follow-up, but in no way is it possible for me to answer to thoughts in your head, so you can't blame me for what I can't possibly differentiate.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnson cannot believe Boris solves the Brexit with general elections.
And I cannot believe how dumb Corbyn is not to pass the BoJo deal through Parliament before GE.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Johnson cannot believe Boris solves the Brexit with general elections.
And I cannot believe how dumb Corbyn is not to pass the BoJo deal through Parliament before GE.


If he did that brexit would happen, all the EU monetarily interests Labour has would dry up, and the Labour platform would implode. The entire idea is that Tories = bad. If they agree to any brexit they loose. Lib Dems loose worse. They are basically being funded by the EU.

Right now the political class in the UK don't want brexit because they all get money from the EU. Basically, corruption. Any type of brexit will devastate the political class.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Face it. The EU is as corrupt as FIFA.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Private Eye captured it well.
That link is only good until 11 Nov.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
If he did that brexit would happen, all the EU monetarily interests Labour has would dry up, and the Labour platform would implode. The entire idea is that Tories = bad. If they agree to any brexit they loose. Lib Dems loose worse. They are basically being funded by the EU.

Right now the political class in the UK don't want brexit because they all get money from the EU. Basically, corruption. Any type of brexit will devastate the political class.
If the whole of the UK political class is funded by the EU - never heard of it - I ask myself:
Why wouldn't the UK fund their own politicians themself ?

.... When in Germany the parliament decides to raise their own wages, the public criticizes this as infamy. But I like it and think they should take more money.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

Why wouldn't the UK fund their own politicians themself ?


Apparently there is a good return from a small investment corrupting UK politicians:
https://newfinancial.org/the-impact-of-brexit-on-the-city/
Quote:
This report provides the most comprehensive analysis yet of the impact of Brexit on the City and the wider banking and finance industry. More than 250 firms in banking and finance have moved or are moving business, staff, assets or legal entities away from the UK to the EU – and these numbers are likely to increase significantly in the near future.


the corrupt UK brexiters politicians are doing a great job and the EU can only profit :-)

BTW is the EU corrupt or a corruptor? And the UK politicians corrupt or corruptors? can someone clarify the roles, this corruption is getting confusing ...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Right now the political class in the UK don't want brexit because they all get money from the EU. Basically, corruption. Any type of brexit will devastate the political class.

Old School wrote:
Face it. The EU is as corrupt as FIFA.

erm67 wrote:
BTW is the EU corrupt or a corruptor?
:lol:

@erm67
Thank you for showing a "tiny" difference in semantics.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:


BTW is the EU corrupt or a corruptor? And the UK politicians corrupt or corruptors? can someone clarify the roles, this corruption is getting confusing ...

Power attracts the corruptible, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Local government attract the corruptible, central gov'n attract the corruptible, federal establishments attract the corruptible.
When an establishment lays on such things like this: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1198848/EU-news-European-Council-end-of-year-party-taxpayer-bill are you surprised that it attracts the corruptible
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EU gravy train is one of the few working perpetual motion machines around the world.
Brexit threatens it as its kept going by the self interest of those individual that benefit from it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

corruptable
corrupting
corruptBLING

You can't argue because the label is important!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the EU is profiting the most from brexit please keep threatening us :-)
This misteriuos corruptible corruption is working apparently those misterious being who profit from it will be happy. There's some protocol of the elderly of brexit to read about those innominates? Are they gladiators maybe?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shush, next thing you'll be accused of
Morality124 wrote:
absolute smugness, arrogance, and self-satisfaction and self-assurance in the implied superiority of the EU over the UK


we're all victims of the corrupt European media propaganda!
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