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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Bigot - from dictionary - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Being intolerant towards those people does not make us bigots?

There have been entire works of literature debunking this fallacy. Read a book.



OTW can go away for all I care. Most of them don't even run Gentoo. They'll feel more at home on stormfront or gab.

To keep things fair: the developers and council on a FOSS project of this importance shouldn't be allowed to have secret meetings behind closed doors either. I want to see all IRC rooms publicly logged going forward, so I know this isn't just the pot calling the kettle black.
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xanderal
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
To keep things fair: the developers and council on a FOSS project of this importance shouldn't be allowed to have secret meetings behind closed doors either.

I wouldn't go that far. Sure Gentoo is not some little distro only three people use to learn coding "hello world" but since many/most people using it don't do squat in order of maintenance/developing/paying for it (!), let's calm down...
(and yep, I know, I have seen your user-page but I think you know what I mean...)
Ant P. wrote:
I want to see all IRC rooms publicly logged going forward

You might want to start with reading the council meeting logs/attend council meetings and ask if you need/want to know more...
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
We're looking into that as well. Something that fits in the rather large gap between Unsupported Software and Off the Wall.

Whatever happened to the idea of a hardware and drivers section?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitreya,

If there are changes to OTW, it will be a political decision rather than a technical one.
I've though long and hard about moving this thread to OTW but due to its nature, its bound to have some political content.
Forums feedback mighl be a better fit but its OK here for now ... until it descends into political pantomime.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
I'll just point out that there are plenty on the right. Just look at recent action from the Alabama and Missouri legislatures.

Tony, do you mean the legislation that basically tells adult people to finally grow up and take some responsibility for their choices? I'm curious why you consider it a bad thing.
The first time I installed linux, even sudo kept nagging me with a reminder saing that "with great power comes great responsibility". I consider this rule a necessity.

Jaglover wrote:
OTW is one of rare places on the internet where free speech is still existing. I think they are trying to shut it down.

Huh... Didn't think 'bout that. The excuse about strain on the infra does not seem credible to me either. It's not impossible, given what's going on basically everywhere around the world. I wonder why people working on a community-driven project (mostly male :!: community) would want to do that though. Looks like a sure way to burn the whole thing to the ground.

Jaglover wrote:
Being intolerant towards those [intolerant?] people does not make us bigots?
Unfortunately, it's also a question that prevents "good" people from beging effective. The most aggressive participants set the rules of any interaction, and "bad" people are "bad" because they lack self-awareness and empathy, which in turn makes them unable to ask "am I the villain".
I'm not happy abut that. The reality doesn't care though.

duane wrote:
If I were new to gentoo and stumbled onto this too-politicized thread, it would probably turn me off of the whole distribution. That's an irrational reaction, but very human.

Oklahoma is somewhere in the US, isn't it? I've heard that people there never say how much they earn and whom the voted for, because it's a sure way to lose your friends and kill the festive mood at the party.
Must be a cultural thing, since here, in Europe we can argue about politics all day long, and then go home filled with joy (and booze in some cases), even though nobody changed his mind :lol:
On a more serious note, as a newbie, didn't you have anything better to do than digging through OTW? Getting some technical advice for example? OTW doesn't show up in "new posts" search.
I personally do appreciate being allowed to speak my mind, even though I don't visit this particular section very often. You are allowed to ignore me if you will (and protected by a _very_ long distance), so what's the problem?
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Whatever happened to the idea of a hardware and drivers section?
I don't recall that idea coming up, but in truth I don't see much difference between that and the current Kernel & Hardware sub-forum. What's the distinction you see?

- John
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't personaly see a problem with indexing otw (there's so much crap in internet, that a tiny less won't make a big change), nor i would think anyone would read a message from "Krinn" (or whatever user) and assume it has any official relation to Gentoo anyway.
but to the nature of otw, i don't also see any problem of not getting it index at all.

can't a little change to robot.txt file would make everyone happy and problem solve?
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I don't recall that idea coming up, but in truth I don't see much difference between that and the current Kernel & Hardware sub-forum. What's the distinction you see?

- John


https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1080016-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-0.html
Three pages of discussion there.
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skellr
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
The Gentoo Big Forum Upgrade

I would be happy to make an Amazon wish list bribe/contribution to make sure this doesn't happen again:
Code:
 FONT-FAMILY: "Trebuchet MS",Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

Something like this would be nice.
Code:
FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif;
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xanderal wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
I want to see all IRC rooms publicly logged going forward

You might want to start with reading the council meeting logs/attend council meetings and ask if you need/want to know more...

I do read those. And I watch most wiki and bugzilla changes too. I do the same for the few mailing lists archived by third parties without a garbage interface (RIP gmane)
This is what happens when we're left without an official source of news. People will find other, uncurated, sources of information. And unlike GWN we're under no obligation to filter out the embarrassing stuff.

The Council consistently make OTW look well-behaved in comparison ("Go back to preschool"? Seriously?) and developers are leaving (or being pink-slipped in the name of pedantry) left and right with almost no new talent coming in.
I also note that the Foundation has failed to publish any of their monthly meetings in 2019. They should get on that.

Based on what I've seen in the past year or two, the project is on course for disaster if it doesn't do something about the rot from within. Owning up to it would be a start.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
There is a good number of bigots frequenting OTW, and that is not something Gentoo should be associated with. Hiding it from public should not be controversial and may at least keep the number at bay.

Please stop asserting vitriol is isolated to OTW.

Take to perfect example
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8238850.html#8238850
Quote:
Oh dear.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet, asturm?

And this in this exact section... Personal attack, unsolicited, ad hominem ... and yet the moderators did nothing AND plenty of other instances. You can't take the moral high ground when we are all standing in the same Sh#t. Moderation across the board is questionable, behaviour of the council and developers are questionable... but sure the forums, OTW thats where the real problem is with this community


Although... this post of yours ( https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8325642.html#8325642) does highlight how you are guilty of spreading FUD
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it hard to believe that OTW, even assuming the worst of it, has been more damaging to Gentoo's public image than compromised security circumstances that lead to fairly recent incidents covered by mainstream media.

I can easily see a bunch of would-be newcomers saying, "Oh Gentoo... wasn't their Git repos hacked or something?" way before they could even have the opportunity to click the OTW link on the forums.


Last edited by Morality124 on Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that OTW, even assuming the worst of it, has been more damaging to Gentoo's public image than compromised security circumstances that lead to fairly recent incidents covered by mainstream media.

A guessable password instead of a random number based password. And they worry about Spectre and Meltdown.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only did https://github.com/gentoo get hacked, but also: until last month or so, https://github.com/portage was an unmaintained repo mirror owned by some random user with no contact info.

Whole lot of outsourcing to proprietary services (do you know where your OpenRC comes from?) and none of the due diligence that it requires.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Please stop asserting vitriol is isolated to OTW.

But steveL has been away for some time now.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
Please stop asserting vitriol is isolated to OTW.

But steveL has been away for some time now.
I welcome you to check a systemd thread if you doubt heated opinions are exchanged on support forums.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think vitriol and heated opinions describe all of what's going on in OTW.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
I don't think vitriol and heated opinions describe all of what's going on in OTW.
Its easy to throw accusations around. Backing it up is harder. So far, I see no evidence to back up your claims that bigotry is alive or tolerated on OTW.

OTW is what it is. I haven't seen anything to support your assertion that bigotry is rampant there, except perhaps a few left wing posters here and there. Certainly nothing rampant. There is a lot that isn't PC, but non-PC != bigotry. Trying to moderate (polite way to say "censor") opinions isn't in anyone's interest. Sounds to me more like a call to shut it down because it offends you.

The rules of OTW say
klieber wrote:
If you are easily offended, have thin skin or are otherwise overly-sensitive, this is not the forum for you. There are a lot of people who have opinions here and they are not afraid to share them. Subject to the first provision, they are free to do so.


Now, if someone wants to add a 10 or so non-OTW post requirement (which we seem to have. I don't recall seeing any zero post counts for a couple of years) and hide the forum from the spiders then great. Otherwise, pissing people off by trying to censor them is going to do more harm than good. Particularly if the reason is you happen to have thin skin. The idea is to grow the Gentoo community, not shrink it. At least keeping users active will mean some of them may stop by in the support threads now and again.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigotry is defined as "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself." The real bigots seem to be those who wish to silence opinions they disagree with.
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
<snip>
Now, if someone wants to add a 10 or so non-OTW post requirement (which we seem to have. I don't recall seeing any zero post counts for a couple of years) and hide the forum from the spiders then great. Otherwise, pissing people off by trying to censor them is going to do more harm than good. Particularly if the reason is you happen to have thin skin. The idea is to grow the Gentoo community, not shrink it. At least keeping users active will mean some of them may stop by in the support threads now and again.


++

It would also be wrong to think no community support is offered by OTW, I've seen both technical and other forms of support sought and provided there.

Hiding it is a terrible option, that is a backhanded acknowledgement that there's a problem with OTW (and perversely probably would be the basis of a subsequent move to remove). So, why? What opinion expressed in OTW was so awful as to justify this proposition?

This idea that OTW is somehow a stain on the forums is pretty delusional, it's a moderated forum at the end of the day. I've seen far worse and more damaging material posted on the forums masquerading as technical support, in the past under 'paludis or portage' threads, more recently in 'openRC or systemd' or any of the many Mb of insane drivel posted by miRor.

In any case, all I saw in the originating list-discussion was a couple of throwaway lines by devs; one to toss the forums (well, that's the end of Gentoo) and another 'me-too fu' suggesting "'we' start with OTW". No specific case was cited on the list discussion, or if it was, I missed it. I didn't get the feeling the risk of closure was imminent.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
OTW is what it is. I haven't seen anything to support your assertion that bigotry is rampant there, except perhaps a few left wing posters here and there.

You should check your own political compass then.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
You should check your own political compass then.

Amazingly, I agree with asturm.

OTW does serve a purpose or it did. It does seem to be mostly political vitriol from both left and right (albeit not equally) including lots of racist comments. There are plenty of other political echo chambers on the web.
I'm not proposing thought control but let the Clintonistas and Trumpistas go elsewhere. OTW should be for topics generally related Linux or computing, maybe a little light fun, not rabid racism or Russophobia.

If politics is your bag try www.redstate.com or www.dailykos.com If those are not to your taste I can suggest at least half a dozen more.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Oh dear.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet, asturm?

And this in this exact section... Personal attack, unsolicited, ad hominem ...

Actually, it's not a personal attack/ad hominem. I don't know the full context here (so I can't say whether it's unsolicited or not), but this question is an exact quote used over and over again to point out that the other person it attempting to paint you into a corner by making an assumption maliciously dressed as a question, so whatever your answer is, you confirm the assumption.

Quote:
I'm not proposing thought control but let the Clintonistas and Trumpistas go elsewhere.
Sounds like "I don't dislike fat people, just go be fat somewhere else" to me.
I don't really see the difference between thought control and removing places frequented by people holding views opposing yours.
You could argue that OTW is not technical enough, but "chat" would fall into that non-technical cathegory too. Would you like to get rid of that one too?
How do you draw the line?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong: spaces dedicated to politics result in literal echo chambers where people with particular opinions form echo bubbles and never see any opposition. People in those bubbles want to outperform their peers (because hierarchy), making them push towards whatever extreme any particular buble leans.
Neutral ground, where people holding different views can actually be around each other, seems to be necessary for breaking that pattern. We all have something incommon here. Something that is _not_ related to politics... Which creates trust, that can be used to bridge some gaps.
Say, I don't really want to spend my time listening to 3 bilions random guys bitching about climate change. However, I may be willing to listen to one guy, if I already have a reason to give him some credit. It does not mean I'll accept his opinion, but it makes a better starting point, doesn't it?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
asturm wrote:
You should check your own political compass then.

Amazingly, I agree with asturm.

OTW does serve a purpose or it did. It does seem to be mostly political vitriol from both left and right (albeit not equally) including lots of racist comments. There are plenty of other political echo chambers on the web.
I'm not proposing thought control but let the Clintonistas and Trumpistas go elsewhere. OTW should be for topics generally related Linux or computing, maybe a little light fun, not rabid racism or Russophobia.

If politics is your bag try www.redstate.com or www.dailykos.com If those are not to your taste I can suggest at least half a dozen more.
There was a time when OTW was extremely fun ... Then Obama became president and for 8 years there was multiple separate threads posted every day over tiny things "Obama like fruity loops". It was soo bad that there wasn't any other threads on the main page.
Myself and others advocated a political subpage because there were other things to discuss.

OTW became boring as you could not find other crazy threads to chat in and when they were made they were quickly pushed off the main page due to obama fetishism.

post-obama things vastly improved so you can now see there are other things being discussed.

As I also said, I have seen more vitriolic in support threads than in OTW
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
OTW is what it is. I haven't seen anything to support your assertion that bigotry is rampant there, except perhaps a few left wing posters here and there.

You should check your own political compass then.
Center to center right libertarian. Does that answer your question? Or do you prefer assuming rather than asking?

I'll still challenge you to prove your assertions that OTW contains more than strong opinions and stubborn persons.
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