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guitou
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Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 415
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello.

As a matter of fact, being french I can tell, french language has its rules, the main one probably being: every rule has its exceptions! ^^

And if I may quote a joke (sorry for non french speaking people):
Deux blondes qui se promenent à la campagne:
- Oh! Regarde, un troupeau de chevals!
- Mais non, ce sont des chevaux.
- Pourtant ça ressemble vraiment à des chevals...

++
Gi)
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krinn
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7198

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guitou wrote:
And if I may quote a joke (sorry for non french speaking people):
Deux blondes qui se promenent à la campagne:
- Oh! Regarde, un troupeau de chevals!
- Mais non, ce sont des chevaux.
- Pourtant ça ressemble vraiment à des chevals...

:)
An english version should be something like:
Two blondes are walking:
- Oh, look, a bunch of childs
- No, they are children
- But they looks like childs
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1579
Location: KUUSANKOSKI, Finland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we're already Off-Topic here, I'll leave you with this.
_________________
..: Zucca :..

Code:
ERROR: '--failure' is not an option. Aborting...
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 3293
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does not "chevals" mean "horses" i.e. cavalli ?

EDIT: "Does" not "is" asking about French and butchering English.
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm lost, are we having less forums and thus less Gentoo or having more forums and thus more Gentoo?
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, considering we're sicko giving bad advises and we prevent error report in bugzilla, should we just suggest this user to report to bugzilla about profile 17.1 error instead of helping him? https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8343878.html#8343878
I'm sure after 1000 bug report like this, WilliamH will comes here to thanks us
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Morality124
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Joined: 20 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
So, considering we're sicko giving bad advises and we prevent error report in bugzilla, should we just suggest this user to report to bugzilla about profile 17.1 error instead of helping him? https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8343878.html#8343878
I'm sure after 1000 bug report like this, WilliamH will comes here to thanks us


Of course he'll thank us, in between him inserting new line characters into shell script loop iterations.
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miket
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 412
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
In light of the above, I've made some punctuation corrections to the title of this thread that make it more closely reflect what I think our general consensus to be.


Thank you for being so attentive to the forums! I always appreciate how well the moderation around here works.

Getting rid of the forums would be a matter of throwing out the baby with the bath water. By that logic, we should also throw out the developers because they make mistakes too.

One of the worst trends of our time is to think that if you cannot call yourself ideologically pure unless all those around you are pure also. It becomes an excuse for us to put up walls around us to lock out those who don't see the True Way. "I'm right, you're wrong, so go away."

We do not need more barriers. We need more communication. We have to be able to talk with and understand people around us who think differently. At the end, we still might disagree with others, but at least we acknowedge their dignity and right to speak.

Accordingly, I am very opposed to dropping Off the Wall. That may not be a section I visit very often, but I am certainly not embarrased that some search queries might bring up the name of Gentoo. For that matter, when that happens, we should rejoice that we are still human!


All this said, let me aver that I don't like Markdown. In addition to being nonstandardized, I find it to be woefully underpowered. It is more expressive than Creole, but that's not saying a lot. For technical writing, I vote for Asciidoc. I'm fine with MediaWiki for the wiki: it is quite well known and is enormously more powerful than Markdown, even if it is so-so for technical documentation.

Hell for me is no forums and no wiki. Almost Hell for me is to have them but only with low-powered markup.
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2562

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
1clue wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
1clue wrote:
Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.

Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:

  1. A spec.
  2. Versioning
  3. Extensibility
  4. Testability


Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/

Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple.


You're right, we're not writing any PhD here. But we ARE trying to maintain a database of useful information which can be searched.

OK so we have a forum, which is a database and some web forms around it.

When it comes time to upgrade it, there will no doubt be some different style of wiki text involved. With markdown, there is no clear upgrade path. You need a custom tool for whatever random version of markdown you have. Which, if you've ever looked, either does not exist for nearly as many of dialects as Markdown has, or has some serious bugs in it.

Markdown is like inheriting a bash script off the Internet. Yes, it converts text into some sort of web page, but exactly what symbols convert to what markup? Because the original markdown was put up with no spec and no real testability, and dozens of people downloaded it and changed it, using the same symbol to mean different types of markup in their new dialects, then uploaded those so other people could repeat the process.

In other words, if you are going to upgrade a forum with markdown in the data, you likely need to build your own converter for the type of markdown you happen to use into something that your new site understands.

No matter what type of application you have, especially a forum, you need to consider upgrades and their cost. You need to consider the likelihood that the contents of your data can be converted into something useful in the future. Every flavor of Markdown is a dead end.

https://spec.commonmark.org/0.29/

Seems to have a spec, versioning and test suite to me. What extensibility is it missing? The forums haven't exactly burned down for lack of a [wiki] tag in 15 years...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown#Standardization

This shows that an effort to standardize Markdown started in 2012 but AFAICT the other variants are still going strong. Commonmark only added yet another flavor to Markdown.

As well, Gruber, the founder of Markdown, objects to the name "Markdown" being used in the commonmark project, which pretty much means that commonmark is not markdown at all. Which, I guess, means that there's not yet another flavor because of commonmark, they've added the dimension of "Markdown-inspired wiki formats" to the already over-sized spaghetti heap.

IMO this means that Gruber does not want a spec, which is all the more reason to not use any variant of markdown.

The thing is, many of the main sites using some variant of Markdown also use asciidoc or some other tool which supports a standard upgrade. Yet another reason to forget you ever heard of Markdown.
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6014

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
All this said, let me aver that I don't like Markdown. In addition to being nonstandardized, I find it to be woefully underpowered. It is more expressive than Creole, but that's not saying a lot. For technical writing, I vote for Asciidoc. I'm fine with MediaWiki for the wiki: it is quite well known and is enormously more powerful than Markdown, even if it is so-so for technical documentation.

People keep bringing up this "markdown isn't standardised" rhetoric, even after it's been demonstrably disproven.

I've actually tried to write an Asciidoc implementation and it turned out to be impossible: because there's no spec, no test suite, no standard, and it's defined entirely by a single, unmaintained, implementation and the contents of its config files.


1clue wrote:
As well, Gruber, the founder of Markdown, objects to the name "Markdown" being used in the commonmark project, which pretty much means that commonmark is not markdown at all. Which, I guess, means that there's not yet another flavor because of commonmark, they've added the dimension of "Markdown-inspired wiki formats" to the already over-sized spaghetti heap.

IMO this means that Gruber does not want a spec, which is all the more reason to not use any variant of markdown.

Gruber is a Mac-using hack stuck in a 2005 blogosphere fantasy and nobody gives a shit what he wants or thinks. Code talks, bullshit walks.
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