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Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3345 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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MarkDown/AsciiDoc/whatelsethereare would be nice, I'll admit.
Dr.Willy wrote: | I have no experience using SE, is that like StackOverflow? | Stack Exchange is StackOverflow and many others like it. ;) _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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Chiitoo Administrator
Joined: 28 Feb 2010 Posts: 2575 Location: Here and Away Again
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Dr.Willy wrote: | Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration. I don't know what kind of software they are using, but there are some nice things there.
The overview helps in bringing up topics in otherwise low-traffic subforums, thread-outlines with post-dates for longer/older discussions |
I believe it's using Discourse (software).
Personally not a fan, but for inspiration... maybe. :] _________________ Kindest of regardses. |
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pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dr.Willy wrote: | BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? Thinking about it, the Github issue-tracker has some nice features for a discussion forum as a whole. | XML aside, "cool kids" often do really dumb things for reallly dumb reasons. I'm not sure what inline-CODE achieves, but I really hope it doesn't involve any of the cool kids' ScrollyMcScroll stuff. And if github does anything well, UI is not on the list.
Kill it with fire. To be fair, I only clicked that link and one subsequent "forum" link. But then I view the modern web era for what it is.
$.02. _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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1clue Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 2569
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.
Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:
- A spec.
- Versioning
- Extensibility
- Testability
Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/ |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dr.Willy wrote: | No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? |
Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason). |
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Anon-E-moose Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6098 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Why am I not surprised at who the chief instigator was. That guy is a walking disaster for gentoo. _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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CasperVector Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 156
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Dr.Willy wrote: | Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration. I don't know what kind of software they are using, but there are some nice things there.
The overview helps in bringing up topics in otherwise low-traffic subforums, thread-outlines with post-dates for longer/older discussions |
It uses discourse, which is commercial (EDIT: my fault, it is actually FOSS, but they can install it for you on the cloud for some price).
What about Flarum (purported to be the successor to esoTalk and FluxBB), which I think would be (when it becomes mature) lightweight yet modern? _________________ My current OpenPGP key:
RSA4096/0x227E8CAAB7AA186C (expires: 2020.10.19)
7077 7781 B859 5166 AE07 0286 227E 8CAA B7AA 186C
Last edited by CasperVector on Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:12 am Post subject: |
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CasperVector wrote: | It uses discourse, which is commercial. |
Is it? |
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CasperVector Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 156
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, my fault. I saw the word "pricing" and then thought of GitHub's "pricing"... Again, sorry _________________ My current OpenPGP key:
RSA4096/0x227E8CAAB7AA186C (expires: 2020.10.19)
7077 7781 B859 5166 AE07 0286 227E 8CAA B7AA 186C |
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Naib Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6051 Location: Removed by Neddy
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Ant P. wrote: | Dr.Willy wrote: | No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? |
Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason). |
That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.
That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.
Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated
At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller _________________
Quote: | Removed by Chiitoo |
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Dr.Willy Guru
Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 547 Location: NRW, Germany
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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1clue wrote: | Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.
Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:
- A spec.
- Versioning
- Extensibility
- Testability
Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/ |
Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple. |
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Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3345 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to see more ReStructuredText. And I believe ~all the Python lovers too. ;)
Although creating links is where it falls. :(
As for MarkDown vs. AsciiDoc, I'd choose the one which is more standardized.
Aren't we quite off topic here now? :P _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10589 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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LaTeX for me.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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krinn Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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please admins, write down your name if you like Syncthing Forums and wish use it as inspiration to change the forum, preemptive kill is the only solve.
edit: right is not write, right? But it do sounds right
Last edited by krinn on Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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pjp Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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For simplicity, I like github.com/lobsters/lobsters. Although I'm not sure how well it would function as a forum, if at all (although I don't think having sub-forums is particularly beneficial). _________________ Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Naib wrote: | Ant P. wrote: | Dr.Willy wrote: | No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? |
Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason). |
That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.
That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.
Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated
At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller |
The thing is, the current wiki relies heavily on the Semantic Mediawiki stuff. |
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Naib Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6051 Location: Removed by Neddy
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ant P. wrote: | Naib wrote: | Ant P. wrote: | Dr.Willy wrote: | No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? |
Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason). |
That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.
That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.
Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated
At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller |
The thing is, the current wiki relies heavily on the Semantic Mediawiki stuff. |
and?
lets recap
W.Hubbs wrote: | I don't care that we have a wiki, but can we please look into killing
mediawiki and look at something with a git backend?
It would be very
nice to be able to edit wiki pages in markdown or another similar format
and use git to control the changes instead of editing in a browser. |
Ant. P wrote: |
also tried to kill the wiki we have |
There maybe no contender which has the capability of mediawiki AND with simple backend to facilitate managing via git. _________________
Quote: | Removed by Chiitoo |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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USE=mediawiki emerge -av git? |
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Naib Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6051 Location: Removed by Neddy
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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But that isn't the only use case that was being requested.
Being able to edit not using a web interface.
This is system designing 101, understanding the need descriptions so that use cases can be determined that meet the need descriptions and they are validated by scenarios which influence the implementation
If a needs description is "must not use web interface" and there is a present implementation which relies on that and no migration path, we have a non validated needa description and thus this needs description can be dismissed from influencing the final system
Ergo how can he be wanting to kill the wiki if his request cannot be met within the bounds of the other capabilities, goals and descriptions.
This is just like the council shooting their mouth off about killing the forums (as they are a source of bad fixes). This decision should not reside with them (and if it does that needs to change). If a capability that is needed of Gentoo is a place for users to determine a solution to a problem, a problem that in all likelihood downto their meta diatribution, do they want such queries going to bugzilla _________________
Quote: | Removed by Chiitoo |
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Zucca Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 3345 Location: Rasi, Finland
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Now that DocuWiki has been mentioned, I went to read a little about it and I have to say I'd support the idea of switching from mediawiki to DocuWiki. I like simple things and I like being able to avoid webUI when possible. _________________ ..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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Quote: | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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Naib Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 6051 Location: Removed by Neddy
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Zucca wrote: | Now that DocuWiki has been mentioned, I went to read a little about it and I have to say I'd support the idea of switching from mediawiki to DocuWiki. I like simple things and I like being able to avoid webUI when possible. |
Exactly that's why I deployed dokuwiki where I work and have it at home. It's all just txt files in directories in the area.
Their concept of farms and animals is handy... It took a bit to fully get it working with nginx
Dokuwiki wouldn't work for something like Wikipedia as there is a huge amount of inter related data and the resultant disk access would grind the host server down. But Gentoo? The wiki info isn't that in depth _________________
Quote: | Removed by Chiitoo |
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1clue Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 2569
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Dr.Willy wrote: | 1clue wrote: | Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.
Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:
- A spec.
- Versioning
- Extensibility
- Testability
Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/ |
Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple. |
You're right, we're not writing any PhD here. But we ARE trying to maintain a database of useful information which can be searched.
OK so we have a forum, which is a database and some web forms around it.
When it comes time to upgrade it, there will no doubt be some different style of wiki text involved. With markdown, there is no clear upgrade path. You need a custom tool for whatever random version of markdown you have. Which, if you've ever looked, either does not exist for nearly as many of dialects as Markdown has, or has some serious bugs in it.
Markdown is like inheriting a bash script off the Internet. Yes, it converts text into some sort of web page, but exactly what symbols convert to what markup? Because the original markdown was put up with no spec and no real testability, and dozens of people downloaded it and changed it, using the same symbol to mean different types of markup in their new dialects, then uploaded those so other people could repeat the process.
In other words, if you are going to upgrade a forum with markdown in the data, you likely need to build your own converter for the type of markdown you happen to use into something that your new site understands.
No matter what type of application you have, especially a forum, you need to consider upgrades and their cost. You need to consider the likelihood that the contents of your data can be converted into something useful in the future. Every flavor of Markdown is a dead end. |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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1clue wrote: | Dr.Willy wrote: | 1clue wrote: | Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.
Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:
- A spec.
- Versioning
- Extensibility
- Testability
Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/ |
Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple. |
You're right, we're not writing any PhD here. But we ARE trying to maintain a database of useful information which can be searched.
OK so we have a forum, which is a database and some web forms around it.
When it comes time to upgrade it, there will no doubt be some different style of wiki text involved. With markdown, there is no clear upgrade path. You need a custom tool for whatever random version of markdown you have. Which, if you've ever looked, either does not exist for nearly as many of dialects as Markdown has, or has some serious bugs in it.
Markdown is like inheriting a bash script off the Internet. Yes, it converts text into some sort of web page, but exactly what symbols convert to what markup? Because the original markdown was put up with no spec and no real testability, and dozens of people downloaded it and changed it, using the same symbol to mean different types of markup in their new dialects, then uploaded those so other people could repeat the process.
In other words, if you are going to upgrade a forum with markdown in the data, you likely need to build your own converter for the type of markdown you happen to use into something that your new site understands.
No matter what type of application you have, especially a forum, you need to consider upgrades and their cost. You need to consider the likelihood that the contents of your data can be converted into something useful in the future. Every flavor of Markdown is a dead end. |
https://spec.commonmark.org/0.29/
Seems to have a spec, versioning and test suite to me. What extensibility is it missing? The forums haven't exactly burned down for lack of a [wiki] tag in 15 years... |
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Tony0945 Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 5127 Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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krinn wrote: | edit: right is not write, right? But it do sounds right |
English word write = to put words on paper
English word right - multiple meanings
1. Correct, logically true
2. a direction, opposite of left, same as Latin dextra
3. A privilege extended by law, i.e. the right to remain silent, the right to bear arms
4. politically conservative, from the seating arrangements in the old French Estates-General
My daughter took French in High School. I tried to help her, but she said, "Please Dad, I know you want to help but you make me laugh too hard." What is with those x's at the end of words? Italian is much easier to read and and German is positively phonetic.
Just a little Father's Day tale |
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krinn Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Tony0945 wrote: | What is with those x's at the end of words? |
It's a "special" plural form -> un bijou = des bijoux
It would had been too easy to have all words ends with an S in plural, when you could make exceptions that will end with an X to shown anyone French is not a language but more an art
If you want a good hint for her, all the words taking X in plural end with "ou" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjhnS7A6ag0
Another exception are words ending with "al", that gets plural form as "aux" : un cheval -> des chevaux |
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