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Zucca
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkDown/AsciiDoc/whatelsethereare would be nice, I'll admit.

Dr.Willy wrote:
I have no experience using SE, is that like StackOverflow?
Stack Exchange is StackOverflow and many others like it. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration. I don't know what kind of software they are using, but there are some nice things there.
The overview helps in bringing up topics in otherwise low-traffic subforums, thread-outlines with post-dates for longer/older discussions

I believe it's using Discourse (software).

Personally not a fan, but for inspiration... maybe. :]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`? Thinking about it, the Github issue-tracker has some nice features for a discussion forum as a whole.
XML aside, "cool kids" often do really dumb things for reallly dumb reasons. I'm not sure what inline-CODE achieves, but I really hope it doesn't involve any of the cool kids' ScrollyMcScroll stuff. And if github does anything well, UI is not on the list.

Dr.Willy wrote:
Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration.
Kill it with fire. To be fair, I only clicked that link and one subsequent "forum" link. But then I view the modern web era for what it is.

$.02.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.

Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:

  1. A spec.
  2. Versioning
  3. Extensibility
  4. Testability


Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`?

Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
(recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason).


Why am I not surprised at who the chief instigator was. :roll: That guy is a walking disaster for gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Or look at the Syncthing Forums for inspiration. I don't know what kind of software they are using, but there are some nice things there.
The overview helps in bringing up topics in otherwise low-traffic subforums, thread-outlines with post-dates for longer/older discussions

It uses discourse, which is commercial (EDIT: my fault, it is actually FOSS, but they can install it for you on the cloud for some price).
What about Flarum (purported to be the successor to esoTalk and FluxBB), which I think would be (when it becomes mature) lightweight yet modern?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasperVector wrote:
It uses discourse, which is commercial.

Is it?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Is it?

Sorry, my fault. I saw the word "pricing" and then thought of GitHub's "pricing"... Again, sorry :(
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`?

Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason).


That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.

That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.

Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated

At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.

Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:

  1. A spec.
  2. Versioning
  3. Extensibility
  4. Testability


Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/

Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to see more ReStructuredText. And I believe ~all the Python lovers too. ;)

Although creating links is where it falls. :(

As for MarkDown vs. AsciiDoc, I'd choose the one which is more standardized.


Aren't we quite off topic here now? :P
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTeX for me. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please admins, write down your name if you like Syncthing Forums and wish use it as inspiration to change the forum, preemptive kill is the only solve.
edit: right is not write, right? But it do sounds right


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For simplicity, I like github.com/lobsters/lobsters. Although I'm not sure how well it would function as a forum, if at all (although I don't think having sub-forums is particularly beneficial).
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`?

Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason).


That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.

That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.

Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated

At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller

The thing is, the current wiki relies heavily on the Semantic Mediawiki stuff.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Naib wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
No, I think it's more the sum of many small things. Like BBCode is fucking stone age, straight out of '00 when XML was all the rage in the java universe. How about an inline-CODE? You know like the thing the cool kids writing markdown can just do with `codehere`?

Just give people all the options and let them choose how to write. Having one markup syntax is never going to please everyone (recall that the devs also tried to kill the wiki we have for this exact reason).


That's a but of a spin...
Kill the wiki we have ... BUT advocate replacing with something else.

That is a big difference. There is a reason I use dokuwiki as it's all text based as txt files meaning it can be manipulated from a shell and controlled via got. Mediawiki isn't like that.

Let's flip around what you said... There are people wanting to kill off the forums we have.
The database is aligned to phpBB, if another forum structure is used it will kill what we have (look different) but worst still.. the posts potentially would be lost as the dB structure is translated

At least mediawiki to txt based is simpler simply because the wiki is smaller

The thing is, the current wiki relies heavily on the Semantic Mediawiki stuff.


and?
lets recap

W.Hubbs wrote:
I don't care that we have a wiki, but can we please look into killing
mediawiki
and look at something with a git backend?
It would be very
nice to be able to edit wiki pages in markdown or another similar format
and use git to control the changes instead of editing in a browser.


Ant. P wrote:

also tried to kill the wiki we have


There maybe no contender which has the capability of mediawiki AND with simple backend to facilitate managing via git.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USE=mediawiki emerge -av git?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that isn't the only use case that was being requested.
Being able to edit not using a web interface.

This is system designing 101, understanding the need descriptions so that use cases can be determined that meet the need descriptions and they are validated by scenarios which influence the implementation

If a needs description is "must not use web interface" and there is a present implementation which relies on that and no migration path, we have a non validated needa description and thus this needs description can be dismissed from influencing the final system

Ergo how can he be wanting to kill the wiki if his request cannot be met within the bounds of the other capabilities, goals and descriptions.

This is just like the council shooting their mouth off about killing the forums (as they are a source of bad fixes). This decision should not reside with them (and if it does that needs to change). If a capability that is needed of Gentoo is a place for users to determine a solution to a problem, a problem that in all likelihood downto their meta diatribution, do they want such queries going to bugzilla
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that DocuWiki has been mentioned, I went to read a little about it and I have to say I'd support the idea of switching from mediawiki to DocuWiki. I like simple things and I like being able to avoid webUI when possible.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Now that DocuWiki has been mentioned, I went to read a little about it and I have to say I'd support the idea of switching from mediawiki to DocuWiki. I like simple things and I like being able to avoid webUI when possible.


Exactly :) that's why I deployed dokuwiki where I work and have it at home. It's all just txt files in directories in the area.
Their concept of farms and animals is handy... It took a bit to fully get it working with nginx

Dokuwiki wouldn't work for something like Wikipedia as there is a huge amount of inter related data and the resultant disk access would grind the host server down. But Gentoo? The wiki info isn't that in depth
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
1clue wrote:
Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.

Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:

  1. A spec.
  2. Versioning
  3. Extensibility
  4. Testability


Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/

Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple.


You're right, we're not writing any PhD here. But we ARE trying to maintain a database of useful information which can be searched.

OK so we have a forum, which is a database and some web forms around it.

When it comes time to upgrade it, there will no doubt be some different style of wiki text involved. With markdown, there is no clear upgrade path. You need a custom tool for whatever random version of markdown you have. Which, if you've ever looked, either does not exist for nearly as many of dialects as Markdown has, or has some serious bugs in it.

Markdown is like inheriting a bash script off the Internet. Yes, it converts text into some sort of web page, but exactly what symbols convert to what markup? Because the original markdown was put up with no spec and no real testability, and dozens of people downloaded it and changed it, using the same symbol to mean different types of markup in their new dialects, then uploaded those so other people could repeat the process.

In other words, if you are going to upgrade a forum with markdown in the data, you likely need to build your own converter for the type of markdown you happen to use into something that your new site understands.

No matter what type of application you have, especially a forum, you need to consider upgrades and their cost. You need to consider the likelihood that the contents of your data can be converted into something useful in the future. Every flavor of Markdown is a dead end.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
1clue wrote:
Markdown needs to go the way of the dinosaur. There are an undefined number of variants and no compatibility nor upgrade path from one to the next. Because the same exact text has three different meanings on three different variants of markdown.

Asciidoc, on the other hand, has some things that markdown does not:

  1. A spec.
  2. Versioning
  3. Extensibility
  4. Testability


Heck, I'm not going to type it all. Here's a link to get you thinking: http://www.ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/

Oh common man you're not looking to write your PhD here. 99% of what people do in forums is a) quote other people b) post links and, since this is a technical forum, c) post code.
Make these things simple.


You're right, we're not writing any PhD here. But we ARE trying to maintain a database of useful information which can be searched.

OK so we have a forum, which is a database and some web forms around it.

When it comes time to upgrade it, there will no doubt be some different style of wiki text involved. With markdown, there is no clear upgrade path. You need a custom tool for whatever random version of markdown you have. Which, if you've ever looked, either does not exist for nearly as many of dialects as Markdown has, or has some serious bugs in it.

Markdown is like inheriting a bash script off the Internet. Yes, it converts text into some sort of web page, but exactly what symbols convert to what markup? Because the original markdown was put up with no spec and no real testability, and dozens of people downloaded it and changed it, using the same symbol to mean different types of markup in their new dialects, then uploaded those so other people could repeat the process.

In other words, if you are going to upgrade a forum with markdown in the data, you likely need to build your own converter for the type of markdown you happen to use into something that your new site understands.

No matter what type of application you have, especially a forum, you need to consider upgrades and their cost. You need to consider the likelihood that the contents of your data can be converted into something useful in the future. Every flavor of Markdown is a dead end.

https://spec.commonmark.org/0.29/

Seems to have a spec, versioning and test suite to me. What extensibility is it missing? The forums haven't exactly burned down for lack of a [wiki] tag in 15 years...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
edit: right is not write, right? But it do sounds right


English word write = to put words on paper
English word right - multiple meanings
1. Correct, logically true
2. a direction, opposite of left, same as Latin dextra
3. A privilege extended by law, i.e. the right to remain silent, the right to bear arms
4. politically conservative, from the seating arrangements in the old French Estates-General

My daughter took French in High School. I tried to help her, but she said, "Please Dad, I know you want to help but you make me laugh too hard." What is with those x's at the end of words? Italian is much easier to read and and German is positively phonetic.

Just a little Father's Day tale :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
What is with those x's at the end of words?

It's a "special" plural form -> un bijou = des bijoux

It would had been too easy to have all words ends with an S in plural, when you could make exceptions that will end with an X to shown anyone French is not a language but more an art :D
If you want a good hint for her, all the words taking X in plural end with "ou" -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjhnS7A6ag0
Another exception are words ending with "al", that gets plural form as "aux" : un cheval -> des chevaux
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