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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manning was convicted on 17 of 22 charges and sentenced to 35 years. Presumably less than that for Assnage if convicted. I'd also be surprised if someone didn't commute his sentence, unless it was short.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Manning was convicted on 17 of 22 charges and sentenced to 35 years. Presumably less than that for Assnage if convicted. I'd also be surprised if someone didn't commute his sentence, unless it was short.


Assange's "crime" is suggesting to Manning to install (presumably) BackTrack Linux. I'm not seeing how that will stand up in court, so I do worry that he'll make it to court.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely Trump will pardon Assange. No?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Assange's "crime" is suggesting to Manning to install (presumably) BackTrack Linux. I'm not seeing how that will stand up in court, so I do worry that he'll make it to court.
My only concern is a weakening of protections for journalism and publishing of information (although I'd prefer some requirements for integrity).

According to one article, the issue is a charge of conspiracy to offer assistance. And in my opinion, that far exceeds the boundary of journalism and publishing information. That doesn't sound like "try BackTrack" is the issue. Something like "give me the hash and I'll try too have it cracked" sounds much more like an offer of assistance. So I can see why he's afraid as it appears to have nothing to do with journalism and any protections that might offer. So he was either cocky and didn't think he'd get caught, or made an "honest" mistake not realizing the significance of his actions.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Muso wrote:
Assange's "crime" is suggesting to Manning to install (presumably) BackTrack Linux. I'm not seeing how that will stand up in court, so I do worry that he'll make it to court.
My only concern is a weakening of protections for journalism and publishing of information (although I'd prefer some requirements for integrity).


Agreed completely.

pjp wrote:
According to one article, the issue is a charge of conspiracy to offer assistance. And in my opinion, that far exceeds the boundary of journalism and publishing information. That doesn't sound like "try BackTrack" is the issue. Something like "give me the hash and I'll try too have it cracked" sounds much more like an offer of assistance. So I can see why he's afraid as it appears to have nothing to do with journalism and any protections that might offer. So he was either cocky and didn't think he'd get caught, or made an "honest" mistake not realizing the significance of his actions.


I've read the indictment, 7 through 10 enumerate their case. Manning used a "Linux operating system" to retrieve hashed passwords.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you read 7 and 9 which include "Assange agreed to assist Manning" and "the password Manning gave to Assange to crack", respectively. As I read it, the Linux reference would only be relevant to the portions I quoted in determining "conspiracy to offer assistance". Further, the Linux reference is used to establish that Manning did not otherwise have access to the password information. If she otherwise had access, then I think there would be no case if that was the only angle.

So the scenario I'm seeing is "She didn't have access, Assange offered to help obtain the information and subsequently crack the password for Manning to bypass identifiable credentials." And / or "Use this tool to obtain the password, I'll have it cracked, then you will be able to log in without your own credentials." And that looks an awful lot like something that could be extracted from some form of text based communication.

Extracting the reference to Linux out of context certainly looks different than when it is referenced within context. I don't know if that's enough for a conviction. I wouldn't expect the prosecution's entire case is in the indictment. Looks pretty bad for Assange, and I'm not seeing anything to help him with regards to "journalism." Of course, that's where the defense team's tap dance come into play.

I absolutely see why Assange wanted to avoid extradition to the US. And it very much seems that Manning's testimony would not help Assange. Small tip of the hat kudos to her for showing at least some resistance.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen nothing that indicate that Assange actually did any cracking himself, rather that he explained to Manning how to crack. Lolgov is hinting that Assange ultimately cracked the hashed passwords, but that seems inconsistent with the way Wikileaks has worked. They were never a hacking group, rather a refuge for leakers to give their hacked info to.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there something to indicate a need for him to have run software? I read something about Assnage having someone else crack it. I don't think that absolves him from involvement. I think I read that there was no known result that the password was actually cracked, by anyone.

18. "It was part of the conspiracy [...] to enter into the agreement to crack the password."

From something I read or heard, the protection for journalism is about publishing the materials, not being involved in obtaining them. It very much appears that Assange was involved to some degree. He wasn't merely the benefactor of an anonymous drop box of data.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
From something I read or heard, the protection for journalism is about publishing the materials, not being involved in obtaining them. It very much appears that Assange was involved to some degree. He wasn't merely the benefactor of an anonymous drop box of data.


If it is nothing more than asking for more, every good journalist's neck is on the line. I see Manning as having absolutely broken the law. But I am a lot more skeptical of the case against Assange. If Assange legitimately was involved in the actual hacking/cracking of the data... I will be surprised. That would be above and beyond simple journalistic publication. But that is also why I am skeptical. Assange at Wikileaks was always extremely careful.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like you're focused on "hands on" actions. The indictment does not appear to present that argument. Did he do anything which would qualify as aiding and abetting? We'll see. He still has to be extradited.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
It seems like you're focused on "hands on" actions. The indictment does not appear to present that argument. Did he do anything which would qualify as aiding and abetting? We'll see. He still has to be extradited.


When the suspect is neither a US citizen, nor even within the jurisdiction of the USA... it had better be more than that.

If not, how many of us can be just grabbed by lolgov agents from other countries?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it isn't known what "more than that" is, I think it is too early to tell.

I won't have an issue with generic comments, one of which they referenced in the indictment. Something like "People who keep looking will probably find something."

I do have a problem with something like "Use this tool to extract the password hash. I'll send that to someone to have it cracked and give you back the password to cover your tracks." If something like the latter occurred, I hope he is convicted. That is not journalism.

That does not compare to hypothetical situations, and less so to boogeymen.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I do have a problem with something like "Use this tool to extract the password hash. I'll send that to someone to have it cracked and give you back the password to cover your tracks." If something like the latter occurred, I hope he is convicted. That is not journalism.


My line is exactly at action. Were he have to have said "Use john or hashcat with the following wordlists", I have no problem with what he did. The moment action beyond words occurs, there is an issue.

I don't think we are far apart on this.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
I don't think we are far apart on this.
I agree.

But I do think words can also be action. Two people discussing something without intent is very different from two people discussing something with demonstrable intent. That Manning had already provided information demonstrates, IMO, intent to obtain more if both are engaged in conversation about how/what to do next. Compared to general "encouragement" (don't give up so easily... I'll never reveal a source... etc). Based on the indictment, Assange's actions, Manning's refusal to testify, "demonstrable intent" (my words) seems to be closer to what I expect to see.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It obviously a parallel here according to the Mueller Report:

- Assange talking to Manning
- Trump directing actions to obstruct justice

The difference is on the other end:
There were fine GOP conservative people in the "deep" state behind Trump to obstruct the obstruction intent.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
It obviously a parallel here according to the Mueller Report:

- Assange talking to Manning
- Trump directing actions to obstruct justice

The difference is on the other end:
There were fine GOP conservative people in the "deep" state behind Trump to obstruct the obstruction intent.
The Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong in this one.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
The Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong in this one.
Don't redefine your Syndrome!
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'I do not wish to surrender' Julian Assange tells court over US extradition bid (emphasis added) wrote:
Love faced extradition from Britain to the US over allegations of computer-enabled crimes [...]

He explained that the American prosecutors are not supposed, under UK law, to secure Assange’s extradition on one set of charges and then slap a more serious set on him once they have him in their grasp.

“It’s called speciality,” said Love, who now knows a thing or two about extradition law. “If you request extradition, you’re meant to put the charges in the request so they’re not changed for something else. It’s clear there are sealed indictments much higher than the [current] Computer Fraud and Abuse Act charges, possibly espionage ones.”

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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
'I do not wish to surrender' Julian Assange tells court over US extradition bid (emphasis added) wrote:
Love faced extradition from Britain to the US over allegations of computer-enabled crimes [...]

He explained that the American prosecutors are not supposed, under UK law, to secure Assange’s extradition on one set of charges and then slap a more serious set on him once they have him in their grasp.

“It’s called speciality,” said Love, who now knows a thing or two about extradition law. “If you request extradition, you’re meant to put the charges in the request so they’re not changed for something else. It’s clear there are sealed indictments much higher than the [current] Computer Fraud and Abuse Act charges, possibly espionage ones.”


Should point out that it was CFAA charges that drove Aaron Swartz to suicide. And those were only CFAA charges.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swartz probably had mental health issues. Assange locked himself away and some claim he was still doing just fine.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Swartz probably had mental health issues. Assange locked himself away and some claim he was still doing just fine.


My point was to point out the severity of CFAA charges (and in Swartz case, it was only for copying journal articles unusually, and the process was enough for him to commit suicide). See this for another example of CFAA charges. This juxtaposes to the fact that Assange has likely been given more severe charges than the CFAA.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
pjp wrote:
Swartz probably had mental health issues. Assange locked himself away and some claim he was still doing just fine.


My point was to point out the severity of CFAA charges (and in Swartz case, it was only for copying journal articles unusually, and the process was enough for him to commit suicide). See this for another example of CFAA charges. This juxtaposes to the fact that Assange has likely been given more severe charges than the CFAA.


++

It's a draconian law in some aspects.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is that not true of all laws? Or is it only applicable to the ones you don't like?
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
How is that not true of all laws? Or is it only applicable to the ones you don't like?


I think you were replying to muso, but I would like to reiterate that I was trying to further elaborate the part of the quote you emphasized.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
How is that not true of all laws? Or is it only applicable to the ones you don't like?


I don't think laws against murder are draconian. Nor laws against rape, assault, etc.
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