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Are you interested in buying a GPU with RTX?
Yes, if it's in a different product so that I can buy it separately.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Yes, if it's in the same product so that I must buy it if I purchase a GPU.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No, the cost would have to be 2x less.
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
No, the cost would have to be 5x less.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No, It's just a hype.
58%
 58%  [ 7 ]
No, the performance is too low. It must be 10x faster to be worth it.
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
No, the performance is too low. It must be 100x faster to be worth it.
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
No, I don't play games (Lier :) ).
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 12

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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:05 am    Post subject: POLL Do you want RTX? Cross-website-post. Reply with quote

Hey, I heard from 1 of the people that do HW reviews that AMD was considering implementing their very own RTX and looking at what people think of RTX.
I got 5 votes in 23 hours at LQ :( so I'm trying to reach a larger audience by posting here. Please vote only on 1 site.
If the RTX GPU has Linux support and some games to play would you purchase a GPU with RTX or RTX like HW?
Bear in mind that AFAIK current Nvidia GPU's do RTX by partially ray tracing the scene (shadows only), at a low resolution. Then use an AI to fill in the missing shadow pixels and finally use the AI to blow the image way up to 1080p at an astounding ~30fps :oops: !!!
My intention is to give AMD some idea of what you guys think.
Feel free to comment also!

Note to voters: Most of the answers that are "no..." become "yes..." if/when Nvidia and AMD do fix the stated problem. And I have listed the common ones.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't buy products based on marketing jargon. I make purchasing decisions based on how many times per week I see their existing users having problems.

Yes, that means I haven't bought an nvidia card in 16 years. It also means I've no intention of buying high-end AMD hardware when I'm still waiting on things like OpenCL and Freesync that should have been delivered half a decade ago. Having to wait months to use my current card's HDA output was adding insult to injury, and it's 2019 - where's the hardware-assisted openal?

Drivers first AMD, then we'll talk.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news for you then. Freesync support was merged about 1 month ago.
Opencl support appears to still suffer from bugs.
Thanks for your comments.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I don't buy products based on marketing jargon.

I think it worth mentioning that Ray Tracing eXtensions (RTX) is not jargon. It is a large portion of the recent Nvidia's GPUs die space. You pay for it whether or not you use it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was brought to my attention that some people think that this poll is an attempt at forcing a technology upon companies. That was *never* my intent. Nvidia has things, like physX and hairworks that AMD does not. Likewise the reverse is true for things like Vega's HBM being used as a last level cache.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RTX is potentially interesting, but the performance is waaaaaaaaay too poor right now. 4k @ 60 fps minimum would be the required performance before I'm interested.

Also, I'm not aware of any DRM free Linux native games that support RTX at all yet.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mad Merlin wrote:
Also, I'm not aware of any DRM free Linux native games that support RTX at all yet.

Let me quote the original poll "If the RTX GPU has Linux support and some games to play would you purchase a GPU with RTX or RTX like HW?"

More to the point, AMD created some opensource drivers for us. They just added freesync support! All we lack in major features is Radeon Chill and a fancy GUI! We are obviously relevant! So when I hear that AMD is looking at how people feel about RTX I think "OMG, we, the FLOSS community could make an impact :P !" And across 7 forums (6 distro and LQ), and 2 days I now have 12 votes :( .
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballsystemlord wrote:
More to the point, AMD created some opensource drivers for us.

You should learn your history. xf86-video-radeonhd was the open driver. AMD undermined and burned out the volunteer developer of that driver through office politics and then foisted upon us the current state of blob-encumbered ones across the board, the latest of which were a year late because they refused to meet kernel coding standards several times, and of course still incomplete because they no longer publish hardware ISA documentation and nobody wants to touch this stuff with a 10ft pole after seeing how the last person got chewed up.

They've been overpromising and underdelivering for a decade now. I highly doubt this gross negligence of netiquette here is going to suddenly inspire them to give us our money's worth.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
ballsystemlord wrote:
More to the point, AMD created some opensource drivers for us.

You should learn your history. xf86-video-radeonhd was the open driver. AMD undermined and burned out the volunteer developer of that driver through office politics and then foisted upon us the current state of blob-encumbered ones across the board, the latest of which were a year late because they refused to meet kernel coding standards several times, and of course still incomplete because they no longer publish hardware ISA documentation and nobody wants to touch this stuff with a 10ft pole after seeing how the last person got chewed up.<snip>

Ouch. I never heard of that. Do you have a link to the story, or is it spread across the net in 1000 little pieces?
When I came onto the FLOSS scene it was proprietary all around. The FLOSS stuff for the, then brand new, GCN arch was in it's infancy.
As for binary blobs, I read that that was just firmware for the GPU and that requiring external firmware was becoming more common for lots of HW.
Thanks
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://libv.livejournal.com/27799.html
Unsurprisingly, RedHat rears its ugly head in this story.

The first ATI card I bought was 15 years ago. It had open drivers and no firmware blobs.
Today, as a result of all the above, that same card requires firmware blobs to work in Linux despite offering no new functionality. That's a downgrade. Old nvidia users are ironically more free.
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Ralphred
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of your options reflect my opinion, so...
RTX is a new technology and most of it's applications are theoretical ATM, yeah, there are like 2 or 3 games so far, and I'm sure there were some "interesting" deals done to make that happen.
Nothing is free, so even if it was "given" with a new card that had a competitive price I'd still be sceptical as to what I could have had instead of RTX (more GPU power, better clock speeds, less energy usage etc)

Until it manages to prove itself to not only be useful, but usable for us, I don't see this changing.
Also +1 on Ant P's comments about drivers.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
https://libv.livejournal.com/27799.html
Unsurprisingly, RedHat rears its ugly head in this story.

The first ATI card I bought was 15 years ago. It had open drivers and no firmware blobs.
Today, as a result of all the above, that same card requires firmware blobs to work in Linux despite offering no new functionality. That's a downgrade. Old nvidia users are ironically more free.

Not to hijack my own thread, but this looks to be the work of one man, John Bridgman. Granted, the author was trying to talk about what he in particular did, but Luc mentions no body else being opposed to him or the RadeonHD project -- unless directly influenced by Mr. Bridgman. The others, Alex, SANTA, TPM, and EXEC, seemed to support him. Mr. Larabel seemed to be non-committal.
EDIT: Redhat appears to be in Bridgman's pocket and Mr. Airlie appeared to be under the thumb of Bridgman at one point in the story. Why he did not do anything for Luc, but developed a different driver is unclear since Luc seemed to like his original effort.
As for the drivers with blobs (You are right about them AFAIK), I don't know what exactly is going on in AMD. Only that thus far they seem to be supporting at OS Linux driver, which is rather strange, given that when they started showing interest it doing this was about the time they lost big bucks in the economic crash in the US. EDIT2: That is as far back as my knowledge goes and it's rather hazy. Feel free to correct me.


Last edited by ballsystemlord on Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralphred wrote:
None of your options reflect my opinion, so...
RTX is a new technology and most of it's applications are theoretical ATM, yeah, there are like 2 or 3 games so far, and I'm sure there were some "interesting" deals done to make that happen.
Nothing is free, so even if it was "given" with a new card that had a competitive price I'd still be skeptical as to what I could have had instead of RTX (more GPU power, better clock speeds, less energy usage etc)

Until it manages to prove itself to not only be useful, but usable for us, I don't see this changing.
Also +1 on Ant P's comments about drivers.


Could you summarize your opinion?

Considering that AMD will either:
A. include some form of RTX.
B. Not include any.
Your reflections on the viability and usefulness of the tech are very valid, but if we want to say something to the big companies, and they are taking notice now, then sooner would be better.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was brought to my attention that other (FLOSS) implementations appear to have better performance http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/ than Shadow of the Tomb Raider!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted its just hype.

Never buy version 1 of anything. Let it mature first.
Think about Windows 1, Pentium FPU bug, Phenom 1, Ryzen 1 ... and may others.

If its any good, it will become ubiquitous, I'll buy it then, when I can't avoid it :)
Meanwhile, its hype.

While I'm here, a big thank you to all the early adopters that find all the bugs.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have thought of including that option...
If you go to, say the xonotic (or other gaming), forums, I've just started the poll there and have added that option.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballsystemlord,

I still my gaming on an APPLE ][ :)
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
ballsystemlord,

I still my gaming on an APPLE ][ :)

When you have Linux to game on? Are you joking? 8O
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballsystemlord,

Its what I learned to game on.

I did used to run H2G2 (a text adventure) in WINE on linux, but that's online with several alternate sets of graphics.
I don't game much anyway, unless you count Gentoo, which is an ever changing game :)
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
ballsystemlord,

Its what I learned to game on.

I did used to run H2G2 (a text adventure) in WINE on linux, but that's online with several alternate sets of graphics.
I don't game much anyway, unless you count Gentoo, which is an ever changing game :)


The makers of the apple ][ would be very proud to learn that a board admin of one of the most technically demanding Linux distributions preferred to game on their proprietary and ancient HW, when even RTX was an option, then their own "modern" FLOSS computer. :D My hat is off to you (wish there was an emoji on the forums for that).
I love some of my old games too, but not the machines, and not that much.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll worry about RTX when I need it... I'm not going to buy an RTX card in the meantime just to have an RTX card that may become outdated before I use it.

and then, most likely, I'll buy another nvidia card at that point, since they've always just worked for me. The biggest headaches I've had with nvidia is temporary breakage with a new kernel release, and most of the time, that's easy enough to write a patch for myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon my likely ignorance here as i haven't been following graphics cards lately -

What would "RTX" do? How would I use it? (I assume it stands for Real-Time Raytracing). Does that mean there'll be some kind of library with some kind of API that takes a scene description in some parameterized way, and returns a block of pixels? Something else? How would one code for it? Would documentation be generally available?

Would it be similar to what's there now, with more and faster compute units, fast enough for ray-tracing, that can be re-purposed to other things (CUDA, "deep-learning", etc). Or a specialized unit for for ray-tracing?

The thing I find puzzling, is why are graphics cards so common and needed at all, except for the highest performance demands. Vector instructions are common enough and fast enough for some meaningful accelerations. I'd like to see the CPU datapath get even wider for even faster compute per cycle. It won't compete with the highest end cards, but for general-purpose 2D desktop work, a CPU alone, with a some appropriately-extended sufficiently-wide opcodes, should be able to handle most tasks. That would greatly simplify the programming model when there's one execution environment and address space to deal with. No special drivers, just libraries that operate on an area of memory that's mapped into the video generation logic.
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ballsystemlord
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
Pardon my likely ignorance here as i haven't been following graphics cards lately -

What would "RTX" do? How would I use it? (I assume it stands for Real-Time Raytracing). Does that mean there'll be some kind of library with some kind of API that takes a scene description in some parameterized way, and returns a block of pixels? Something else? How would one code for it? Would documentation be generally available?.

Would it be similar to what's there now, with more and faster compute units, fast enough for ray-tracing, that can be re-purposed to other things (CUDA, "deep-learning", etc). Or a specialized unit for for ray-tracing?


Actually, Ray Tracing eXtensions, but yes, it is real time, currently with AI being used to enhance the result and speed.
The HW for ray tracing is limited to applications that do bounded box ray collision detection. Theoretically, you could use it for wind to work on airplane wings but an API for it is very much in the future AFAIK.
Although I'd recommend you do your own research, here are some nice talks on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF4k6wJ-do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT2o_FpNM4g

Akkara wrote:
The thing I find puzzling, is why are graphics cards so common and needed at all, except for the highest performance demands. Vector instructions are common enough and fast enough for some meaningful accelerations. I'd like to see the CPU datapath get even wider for even faster compute per cycle. It won't compete with the highest end cards, but for general-purpose 2D desktop work, a CPU alone, with a some appropriately-extended sufficiently-wide opcodes, should be able to handle most tasks. That would greatly simplify the programming model when there's one execution environment and address space to deal with. No special drivers, just libraries that operate on an area of memory that's mapped into the video generation logic.


Yes, using a CPU as a GPU is possible. I have a great link for you!
https://www.crowdsupply.com/libre-risc-v/m-class
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballsystemlord wrote:
Mad Merlin wrote:
Also, I'm not aware of any DRM free Linux native games that support RTX at all yet.

Let me quote the original poll "If the RTX GPU has Linux support and some games to play would you purchase a GPU with RTX or RTX like HW?"


You don't mention DRM free in the poll. DRM = no buy.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mad Merlin wrote:
ballsystemlord wrote:
Mad Merlin wrote:
Also, I'm not aware of any DRM free Linux native games that support RTX at all yet.

Let me quote the original poll "If the RTX GPU has Linux support and some games to play would you purchase a GPU with RTX or RTX like HW?"


You don't mention DRM free in the poll. DRM = no buy.


I did not say what games (DRM or DRM-free), so that you could choose what would be interesting to you. Some people that use Linux use steam and that is full of DRM AFAIK.
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