Mouse/mouse alternetives

[KCmovestoSD]

Hey everyone,

I am curious what you use. I started to develop an RSI and have been making changes. Currently taking numerous break, stretching, using my standing desk and have purchased a Kinesis Advantage2. I went from an MMO mouse to the Elecom Huge. There was no relief, maybe felt worse. I have a wireless logitech ergonomic mouse and it helps but is not cutting it.

Are there actual good touch pads for a Linux desktop? Is there a trackball you can't live without? Is a vertical mouse "the way"?

I am a Pop!_OS user primarily and have started my Gentoo journey. The current stock desktop environment for Pop! has a fantastic window tiler. I am trying to get use to those hotkeys and have an i3 like experience. But I still rely on my mouse a heavy bit.

Thanks
_________________
Motherboard: PRIME-D WiFi
CPU: 12600k
RAM: 32GB 3200mhz
GPU: 6800XT & RTX 3070ti
Storage: 2x 1TB gen4 nvme, 500GB gen2 nvme

[jonathan183]

[pjp]

I had a mouse induced RSI a very long time ago. I had to switch hands for quite some time.

I worked on wrist posture and switched to a MS Natural keyboard. That _mostly_ solved it.

I've relied heavily on keyboard usage rather than using a mouse. With Windows, using their keyboard shortcuts as often as possible and heavily relying on ALT-TAB to switch between tasks. And mostly command line work.

For personal use, my primary pointing device has been a TrackPoint on a laptop for more than 10 years. For the last 5 years, I've been using a tiling window manager, almost eliminating my need for mouse driven tasks. Of course, there's still web usage, but that is (for me) intermittent enough to usually not be a problem.

Once in a while I find that I'm doing something repetitive with poor posture (either typing or even with the TrackPoint) and I stop doing whatever that was for a while. Usually that's toward the end of the day, so overnight helps. The next day I'm careful, and I'm usually OK for a long time.

I recently connected a mouse to my laptop for something and it didn't take long before I felt that it was problematic. I was able to rest my arm several inches behind the wrist and focus on posture. For me it is a matter of "how much" repetitive mouse work I'm doing, and usually with poor posture. So I try to avoid using mice.

I found trackball devices to be significantly worse than any mouse. And I've never experienced a touchpad that was usable (but nothing to do with RSI).
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo?

[Spanik]

It may depend on what part of your arm/hand has RSI problems. I have problems with my fingers from clicking the whole day, specially after a day of PCB routing. So I have set my work PC for right handed mouse and the home PC for left handed mouse (but use my right hand). This makes me use different fingers spreading the load. When using the mouse for long times I tend to put it at the place of the keyboard (or below it with a laptop. Not besides the keyboard. I find that easier on the shoulder.

For the rest I try to minimise clicking. So I have the pc set for single click to open files, focus strictly under mouse (some apps are not happy with that), using ctrl-x/c/v/u/b/s instead of clicking in a menu, alt-tab in windows to switch tasks,
_________________
Expert in non-working solutions

[pa4wdh]

[pietinger]

[pjp]

[pietinger]

[szatox]

I use trackpoint and a graphic tablet.
The latter would probably be a good option for you.
I have a medium sized model from Wacom's professional line, though I never bothered with configuring all the buttons around the pad. Stylus is lightweight and comfortable, powered by the pad and you can hold it without straining your hand.
You could get away with much cheaper Bamboo. AFAIR it doesn't detect tilt, but it should be good enough for a pointer.

Two things you must know in advance:
- graphic tablets operate on absolute coordinates. This confuses games designed for mouse and/or joystick.
- though a tablet has very high resolution, going with a physical dimension smaller than a quarter of your display makes it difficult to use because your hand is too shaky. An oversized device on the other hand will make you flail your arm a lot, so there is no point in paying extra only to restrict the active area later on. (This can be done in xorg.conf and should be done to match aspect ratio)

[KCmovestoSD]

I greatly appreciate everything. I am looking into everything. And seeing what I would have to do to get them go work before I even purchase. Drawing pads are a possibility.

Grabbing Vimium for Firefox. Currently still using the Pop shell tiling on my Pop!_OS install. I tried the same on my Gentoo install (Gnome rice to look like my daily driver) and my CPU usage went through the roof, but that's for another day.

Touch pad for the Pop! seems like that will be plug and play if you will. With my current kernel in Gentoo it should be good to go.

Wacom graphic tablet is looking like a solid option. Can't find a specific trackpad/touchpad that standouts more than the other. With the stylist and tablet approach, can you left click with a tap of a pen? Or is it all dependent on how it's set up?

For gaming, I primarily use my PS5 controller. Trying to game on an Kinesis Advantage2 seems like a nightmare to me.
_________________
Motherboard: PRIME-D WiFi
CPU: 12600k
RAM: 32GB 3200mhz
GPU: 6800XT & RTX 3070ti
Storage: 2x 1TB gen4 nvme, 500GB gen2 nvme

[szatox]

Yes, you can tap to click. Graphic tablet tracks the stylus hovering above the pad and moves the pointer accordingly. "Drawing" is essentially drag and drop.
The stylus I have also has 2 buttons on the side (I think it's a standard feature but don't quote me on this) which work as middle and right button. I have used it with windows, the drivers provided with those devices are fully configurable. In linux I think I only adjusted active area to match my display aspect ratio (only important when drawing, unless you have a very wide display, multiple monitors or something similar), pressure curve and changed some options regarding right click or something like that... Anyway, xorg's defaults are pretty sane those days, I have no problems just hooking it up to my laptop an using it immediately without any changes.

BTW, at least some grapic tablets double as touchpads. Wacom's pads which do that disable touchpad whenever stylus is within detection range (under 2 centimeters), so resting your hand on the pad does not interfere with stylus - some other brands don't do that or even can't distinguish between a finger and a stylus, which makes them messy.
Since the detection range is short, I can still use 2-finger gestures for scrolling and zooming with my main hand by just flipping the stylus side-ways, instead of putting it away.
Although my pad itself recognizes gestures up to 5 fingers, xorg does not know what to do with them. A few specialized applications can use some gestures (Krita?), but that's it. And it's crude.
On the other hand, 2 finger gestures which also send codes emulating additional mouse buttons work much better than said buttons. I can scroll vertically AND horizontally AND zoom without any configuration at all, so perhaps the basic gestures are actually interpreted as gestures in xorg now.

Overall I'm quite happy with this thing. If I were actually working with graphics, I'd surely want to actually use all those extra buttons bells and whistles the pad is supposed to provide, but the things that do work are more than enough for every day use, so I never bothered investigating what it takes to make the extra features work.
If you like the idea of using a tablet instead of a mouse, try going for the cheapest wacom that is be big enough for your display setup. If you have multiple monitors, add them up.
With 4k display my 6" tablet is on the small side, 8" would do better. For more typical resolutions, like FHD even 4" of active area is plenty.

[KCmovestoSD]

Hey Szatox,

I have a 4k monitor as my primary monitor. And a 1080p monitor set up vertically for my secondary. Gesture/ability to us fingers, seems like such a QOL feature that I don't want to compromise. Just to have the ability for that seems great. I do hope eventually I can use all the peripherals I have purchased. But it seems like this will be my life for at least several more months.

But to also just talk this out, I will be trying to get vimium working. As well as printing out a cheat-sheet with all the hotkeys I have. The reliance on the mouse needs to go down. Is hand gesture too high in my book?

Wacom Pro Med/Large (cost... sheesh)
https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Digital-Graphic-Drawing-PTH660/dp/B01MTZ9CCD/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=sulEp&content-id=amzn1.sym.e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_p=e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_r=WTV23XF7VSYD9F5F4Z1M&pd_rd_wg=PBB2f&pd_rd_r=115a91c1-aa33-466b-b7ab-7a83c84be743&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m&th=1

UGEE M708
https://www.amazon.com/Graphics-Drawing-Tablet-Ugee-M708-Graphic-Tablet-Chromebook/dp/B072M76LNZ/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=zRoDp&content-id=amzn1.sym.8cf3b8ef-6a74-45dc-9f0d-6409eb523603&pf_rd_p=8cf3b8ef-6a74-45dc-9f0d-6409eb523603&pf_rd_r=WTV23XF7VSYD9F5F4Z1M&pd_rd_wg=PBB2f&pd_rd_r=115a91c1-aa33-466b-b7ab-7a83c84be743&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mi

Touchpad
https://www.amazon.com/Touchpad-Trackpad-Precision-Multi-Touch-Navigation/dp/B07VBLLDXR/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=zRoDp&content-id=amzn1.sym.8cf3b8ef-6a74-45dc-9f0d-6409eb523603&pf_rd_p=8cf3b8ef-6a74-45dc-9f0d-6409eb523603&pf_rd_r=WTV23XF7VSYD9F5F4Z1M&pd_rd_wg=PBB2f&pd_rd_r=115a91c1-aa33-466b-b7ab-7a83c84be743&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mi

I think I moved away trackball and vertical mouse. The vertical mouse, I'd probably rely too much on it. Trackball, I think I'd just rest my hand on it probably not mitigating the RSI.
_________________
Motherboard: PRIME-D WiFi
CPU: 12600k
RAM: 32GB 3200mhz
GPU: 6800XT & RTX 3070ti
Storage: 2x 1TB gen4 nvme, 500GB gen2 nvme

[szatox]

Oh wow, intuos pro line is the only one offering pad large enough for your display then. Yes, these are not cheap. Damn, I though some simpler version would do, but here we are.
Ugee looks interesting too, though I don't see anything regarding multitouch and price, the amazon link simply says out of stock.

Perhaps the touchpad alone would be good enough? I suppose you could get it at a fraction of tablet's price.
2 finger (navigation) gestures seem to be working out of the box. 3+ don't and I have no idea what it takes to make them work in linux or even if it is possible or what the recognized gestures really are.

[KCmovestoSD]

I see a used large Pro going for 335. I am thinking I'll pull the trigger. I can return it if I don't like it.

Update:
Found a better deal. It should be here by Monday. So we will see how this goes. I got it around 215 after shipping. Rather excited. My system/collection is becoming legendary at this point. (keyboards and mice)
_________________
Motherboard: PRIME-D WiFi
CPU: 12600k
RAM: 32GB 3200mhz
GPU: 6800XT & RTX 3070ti
Storage: 2x 1TB gen4 nvme, 500GB gen2 nvme

[eccerr0r]

I finding having the right desk and chair more important than the mouse and keyboard, but YMMV. Do not completely ignore these.
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?

[KCmovestoSD]

[eccerr0r]

Do what's right for you, but standing desks are not for me, I get another type of fatigue stress if I use such...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?

[szatox]

KCmovestoSD, one last thing would be "add wacom to your 'INPUT_DEVICES=' and rebuild with --newuse".

Eccerr0r, a treadmill is a nice addition to a regular standing desk. It does not go well with very sensitive controllers like tablets and trackpoints, but mice remain perfectly usable when walking.
And well, walking is the most natural state of a human body.

[djdunn]

I used to get bad rsi in my right wrist, i did type a lot, what really helped more than anything else at all was...

switching keymap to dvorak
_________________
“Music is a moral law. It gives a soul to the Universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, a charm to sadness, gaiety and life to everything. It is the essence of order, and leads to all that is good and just and beautiful.”

― Plato

[mrbassie]

Sorry to ask, I'm right dozy me. But happy.

What is a desk that doesn't stand?

[eccerr0r]

There are desks that are higher than usual - designed for people to stand up and use the computer while you stand, instead of the usual sitting on a chair.

Since standing does require some energy to lock the knee, etc. to keep you upright, IMHO this is not a comfortable way to use the computer if you need to use the computer for long periods of time. If you need to work on other things in a production environment nearby, then this makes sense. But in a financial or development environment where you're expected to be at the computer for most of the work day, this doesn't make much sense.

And BTW, touch screen monitors for desktops do exist, you can poke at your monitor to get things moved around, and many can do all the same things a smartphone does. Initially for POS workstations but this could be used for PCs if one needs a pointer without having to move something other than their hands and fingers. IMHO also very annoying for development or financial, but works great for production.

(Also...any computer tasks that disinterest me tend to give me RSI faster, though all uncomfortable positions will eventually do so even when elated to do the task. Anyway I'm generally assuming others behave the same way...)
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?

[Hund]

You should try skipping the mouse. I don't have any issues myself, but if I use the mouse over longer periods of time, it gets uncomfortable. I use a keyboard focused workflow, which I found comfortable to use. I don't have to worry about anything. :)
_________________
Collect memories, not things.

[eccerr0r]

Not all workflows can jettison the mouse. Engineering very frequently needs the mouse, whereas financial and software development may not need it.

Gaming without a mouse might be troublesome...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?

[AJM]

For no particular reason I recently ditched my perfectly serviceable mouse and couldn't decide what to replace it with so bought both a Logitech MX Master 2S mouse and MX Ergo trackball to try out.

The mouse is very nice indeed and the trackball was slightly odd to use at first, yet I've ended up using it full time. I like the tilting base (I use it fully tilted) and also the easily accessible button for switching between computers (using another USB dongle.) I hardly ever have to use the higher-precision mode now so must have developed the fine muscle control required.

I do prefer the free scrolling mode available on the mouse (as opposed to the ratcheting default as is on the trackball); I also much prefer the fact that the mouse will continue working with the USB cable plugged into the front like a wired mouse, whereas the trackball stops working once it's plugged in to charge. The battery life of these is so good that this isn't much of an issue though.

Both devices and extra USB (unifying receivers) are easily configured on Linux using Solaar - thankfully much less bloaty than the shocking Logitech software for Windows!

To sum up, I'm sold on the MX Ergo trackball - it really is comfortable to use for me and maybe most importantly it works very well when you don't have a lot of desk space available since you don't have to move it around.

[KCmovestoSD]