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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: The Irony of systemd - boottime Reply with quote

We Need to Talk About Systemd
Boot Time Optimization for the new init daemon


https://static.sched.com/hosted_files/osseu19/58/systemd-csimmonds-elce-2019.pdf

remember when Systemd was sold as a fast init system (because in-car needs fast)
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mike155
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a nice presentation. It explains what Systemd is and it shows how you can speed up boot time using Systemd tools.

There's nothing wrong with that?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155,

It goes even faster if you throw away systemd and friends.

-- edit --

Does systemd have any friends?
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never had a problem with boot times even before systemd showed up. *shrugs*
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mike155
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
mike155,
It goes even faster if you throw away systemd and friends.

That's true! And that's exactly what the presentation says (page 7, slide 17):
  • Boot-up speed of Buybox init: Fast
  • Boot-up speed of System V init: Slow
  • Boot-up speed of Systemd: Medium

It also says that Systemd is 'not just an init system', but 'a way life' (page 8, slide 18 )

I can't find anything wrong in this presentation. Why don't you like it?


Last edited by mike155 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I boot my desktop most of the time takes firmware initializing hardware. Will systemd convince the firmware to boot faster? Once the boot is handed over to kernel everything is blistering fast with OpenRC, thanks to eMMC methinks.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An old classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NXMmHYNYfA
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that the author thinks System V init is "slow", or that it "requires bash", really highlights how absolutely ignorant they are about how it works and where it begins and ends. Claiming busybox is zero files and zero MB too. They're drunk on the redhat kool-aid.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Does systemd have any friends?
Apparently most installations of Linux systems and at least one BSD developer. Anyone else fears change. The Tragedy of systemd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
The Tragedy of systemd


Interesting, I hadn't seen that before, and he has some valid points.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp,

Thank you for that link. There are a lot of valid points there.

Being an old fart and systemd doesn't solve any problem I have, I don't want to invest my time in learning to do what I do today differently.
For me, its change for change sake.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a problem that all LP's ideas are ripped off from apple, at least to me, it's the fact that all the software that he "develops" is done in a half-assed way.
No engineering, no discipline, no real forethought (that I can tell), just a hacker mentality (gee whiz this is neat)

And like Neddy, I don't want to change just to change, unless there's benefits (lots of them) I don't want spend the effort learning something new.

And I hate monolithic software (you must install all of it) bah humbug.
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etnull
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

openrc and systemd boot takes about the same on my machine.
however systemd's poweroffs are 3 minutes slower than openrc most of the times on my machine.
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GDH-gentoo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
  • Boot-up speed of Buybox init: Fast
  • Boot-up speed of System V init: Slow
  • Boot-up speed of Systemd: Medium
[...]
I can't find anything wrong in this presentation. Why don't you like it?

At the risk of being captain obvious, the irony here is that the presentation even exists. As you might know, at the time adoption of systemd was being pushed, one of the selling points that was used a lot was that it made the boot process faster. And here we have a presentation that not only says, in the author's opinion, that one init system that predates it is actually faster, but also that they felt the need to actively do something to try to reduce systemd's boot time. And, in that light, the fact that, after what appears to mostly consist on disabling useless units for the target embedded system, so that systemd does not waste time loading and activating them, the conclusion is that the boot process is still too long, is just hilarious.

Then, elaborating on what Ant P. said about the slide where systemd is compared to BusyBox init and "System V" init, to someone with the same level of knowledge about them as the one the author appears to have about systemd, that table just looks like a comparison of apples to oranges. The existence of a "required shell" row is outright wrong. Hint: Busybox and sysvinit, defined as the software packages that contain the corresponding "init daemon", don't need a shell at all. Let alone a particular implementation of it, like ash or bash. And saying that Busybox has 0 executables is... ugh. One wonders how the "init daemon" is implemented then, if it is not with an executable. Magic dust?

However, I do realize that the comparison is not the presentation's main point. I would have preferred a slide that just said someting like "we found that systemd was not fast enough, and that distribution XXX, that uses BusyBox init as process 1, actually booted faster, so here's what we did". And I agree that, as a brief introduction about systemd's init system aspects, it is fine.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that's what made me laugh. I remember the PR when systemd was coming on the scene how it was faster than sysvinit and this was needed for incar entertainment.

Whether it was ignorance pointing to sysvinit (which is fast for what? 200 lines) or whether they didn't want to bring focus onto sysvrc and redhat appalling sh writing who knows BUT people bought into and well it is what it is.

It is just soo amusing also hearing that incar entertainment uses busybox for speed because systemd is soo slow when this was the example usecase to push systemd


In other news Debian are having a dev vote whether to support a non-systemd system as it is splitting into those that can't be bothered (sysd does it all for them) and those that are worried about the encapsulation
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Interesting, I hadn't seen that before, and he has some valid points.
NeddySeagoon wrote:
pjp,

Thank you for that link. There are a lot of valid points there.

Being an old fart and systemd doesn't solve any problem I have, I don't want to invest my time in learning to do what I do today differently.
For me, its change for change sake.
You're welcome. I too thought most (maybe all) of the points were valid. I was disturbed by the superficial dismissal of criticism (all software has bugs, etc. which I thought went along with most of the valid points). It also seemed a bit too much on the side of a sales pitch and a "one of us" chant. Not to mention "talking down" to anyone that "fears change."

I haven't seen that it solves any problems that concern me, and I don't agree that what is good for RH is good for everyone / everything else. Otherwise I really don't care (I liked Solaris' SMF, but thought the use of xml was a pain).

On the other hand, I can apparently save ~3hrs a year if I shutdown and reboot on daily basis.
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CaptainBlood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
That's true! And that's exactly what the presentation says (page 7, slide 17):
  • Boot-up speed of Buybox init: Fast
Any ressource for implementation, but OpenRC Gentoo Wiki?
NB: [TRACKER] busybox applet incompatibilities with OpenRC is empty

Thks 4 ur attention.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting that even though now; I still haven't seen anything that systemd brings as a benefit of any way for my systems. Even on one of my systems that is running systemd, it hasn't helped on anything. If anything; I am constantly fighting it over it thinking I want some service when I don't; and/or won't letting me restart the dang service. As far as start up speeds, it is slower than my older system that is running openrc with 2x as many services starting/installed. The logs side? Nope, it's more of a hassle with systemd than anything. I like to skim through my logs once per week to look for something abnormal (rarely there is any issues). For my openrc system, I can easily open the logs in vim, and as fast as vim can scroll through, I can easily skim through to find an abnormal sectiion (easy to see, when 98% tends to be the same set of lines echo'd throughout the log). For systemd, I have to first have it dump everything to the terminal; find the top of the logs; and skim through at the speed of the terminals scrolling rate.
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