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rvandam
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Ditching Gentoo Reply with quote

After 15 years of using Gentoo, I am giving up! I simply don't have time to run updates every week. If you don't update it at least every 4 months it usually becomes permanently broken, especially if there is a EAPI version change. it would be so bad if:
1. all of the portage dependencies are kept isolated so that the system can always be updated. For instance in the worse case the current base patches could be downloaded and untar'd to get the portage up to date.
2. Stop auto-deleting old packages so that you can roll through them to update your system. Have the time you have go and download a portage snapshot because you need the older packages to update first before you can update to the current package. And don't edit older eBuilds with newer EAPI versions. One week its EAPI 6 and the next the same ebuild is now 7! WTF! Just create a new ebuild for it, so I can update my system!
3. Stop automatically running emerge --sync. Its not in cron or any installed scheduler, but some where buried there is a script that is updating my portage ever 3 or 4 days. I posted this as a bug, and the portage maintainers looks as if I was crazy.

It can take 3 or 20 hours to update a large system with +1000 packages installed depending on which packages get updated. It just madness to attempt to keep it constantly updated. Another annonyance is that the portage system keeps on changing every few years with major folder\config file changes. Unix is been Unix for 40 years. config files go in etc, libraries in \usr\lib, and so on. with Gentoo I have to see where the moved or change configuration settings all over the place. its like playing where's Waldo with portage config settings.

I was a slackware user before Gentoo, and I am leaning going back to slackware or CentOs. I tried Debian\Ubuntu and I cannot stand them (nanny distribution designed to protect novice users from doing anything.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Ditching Gentoo Reply with quote

rvandam wrote:
After 15 years of using Gentoo, I am giving up!

ok. Don't necro or hijack others' threads.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from [SOLVED] Alternatives to gentoo that solve these problems?
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: Ditching Gentoo Reply with quote

rvandam wrote:
After 15 years of using Gentoo, I am giving up!
Okay, have fun.
rvandam wrote:
1. all of the portage dependencies are kept isolated so that the system can always be updated. For instance in the worse case the current base patches could be downloaded and untar'd to get the portage up to date.
And dramatically increase work load, and would require extreme neglect to every be useful. Things don't get that broken. Even installs that are years out of date generally do just fine with what is in the tree. Maybe you don't use the system optimally.
rvandam wrote:
Stop auto-deleting old packages so that you can roll through them to update your system. Have the time you have go and download a portage snapshot because you need the older packages to update first before you can update to the current package. And don't edit older eBuilds with newer EAPI versions. One week its EAPI 6 and the next the same ebuild is now 7! WTF! Just create a new ebuild for it, so I can update my system!
That is why you update portage first. Then you don't have the problem. And I can think of exactly one package where having old versions available would ever be required to step up for an update, glibc. But for those to be out of the tree, you would have to neglect your install for about 2 years...
rvandam wrote:
3. Stop automatically running emerge --sync. Its not in cron or any installed scheduler, but some where buried there is a script that is updating my portage ever 3 or 4 days. I posted this as a bug, and the portage maintainers looks as if I was crazy.
Well, this one at least is entirely on you. Portage does not exhibit this behavior, ever. At least not without the user writing the script and forgetting about it.

Sounds like you are your own worst enemy. Did you ever consider troubleshooting the component between the keyboard and chair?
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crocket
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts for innovations

* A mix of gentoo and nixos
* A linux OS that depends on something like Guix or Nix written in Haskell.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bye.

Although it's curious how someone was a gentoo user for 15 years and only joins the forum on the day he sends his goodbye rant.
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kajzer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Bye.

Although it's curious how someone was a gentoo user for 15 years and only joins the forum on the day he sends his goodbye rant.


That's bizarre indeed.
Something's funny here....
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one box that I haven't updated in a year and a half now. It's my (single purpose) internal webserver, no need to update.


Just because updates are offered, they're not mandatory.
Now it's true one may open themselves up to bugs, but it's still not mandatory to update
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Naib
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I have one box that I haven't updated in a year and a half now. It's my (single purpose) internal webserver, no need to update.


Just because updates are offered, they're not mandatory.
Now it's true one may open themselves up to bugs, but it's still not mandatory to update
The other side of this is ... if you did want to update, it is actually quicker to do a re-install as the stage3 tarballs are build daily

in fact... I wonder if you could copy your world file and untar a new stage3 and replace the world file, whether emerge -e @world would work? probably have to telinit 1 to drop to a basic single user terminal ... mmm
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I simply don't have time to run updates every week.


That's tough indeed. Watching compiling in a terminal window all the time, no rest. When you need to go to the bathroom, you stop the build with ^Z. Hard work. And then those bastards change EAPI. O'brother.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Quote:
I simply don't have time to run updates every week.


That's tough indeed. Watching compiling in a terminal window all the time, no rest. When you need to go to the bathroom, you stop the build with ^Z. Hard work. And then those bastards change EAPI. O'brother.


:lol: :P :lol:
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Irre
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never give up Gentoo. Never ever! :D
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
I have one box that I haven't updated in a year and a half now. It's my (single purpose) internal webserver, no need to update.


Just because updates are offered, they're not mandatory.
Now it's true one may open themselves up to bugs, but it's still not mandatory to update
The other side of this is ... if you did want to update, it is actually quicker to do a re-install as the stage3 tarballs are build daily

in fact... I wonder if you could copy your world file and untar a new stage3 and replace the world file, whether emerge -e @world would work? probably have to telinit 1 to drop to a basic single user terminal ... mmm
I've wondered about installing updates to a new location (instead of the running system). Then copying that and the differences from the running system to a new "boot environment." Upgrades are then stored in a versioned build location and could be treated similarly as a daily / differential backup. I haven't considered how to address the different versions / locations of "boot environment."
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to run a laptop and desktop with similar hardware so they used identical use flags. I would update the desktop and produce binary packages that I would then use ntfs to make available to the laptop. 99% of the time there was no compiling involved on the laptop, so it is very possible.

One item that actually interests me is that the OP said if you leave it 4 months it becomes "permanently broken" yet that clearly isn't the case for Gentoo. Usually people come on the forums looking for help after about 6. Maybe he was using something like Sabayon or another "practically Gentoo so it is Gentoo" distro and their updates where the ones that got dorked up. That could also explain the auto-sync issue.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure I could update my 1 1/2 year old install of gentoo, if I really needed too ... albeit with some pains.

Although as Naib said, it might be better to install from a new/current stage 3 tarball.
In that case I'd save /var/lib/portage and /etc and install the tarball then do an emerge sync & world
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szatox
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After 15 years of using Gentoo, I am giving up!
Why do you assume anyone cares about stuff you are _not_ doing?

Quote:
I haven't considered how to address the different versions / locations of "boot environment."
Overlayfs?
It supports multiple "lower" branches. You can flatten it as needed.
I have something like that for portage on a "resource constrained" machine AKA vps... And for a bunch of diskless servers that use pxe boot to ram.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been off and on the same gentoo install for my home server for probably 10 years ..... I just clean up the os partition and save it with fsarchiver. I even recovered it after 2 years but that wasn't easy.
Sometimes I just need to try something new, now I am switching to hypriotOS but I will probaly go with docker on alpine as baremetal OS... My old gentoo partition is in a docker container and I use it to create gentoo based containers with kubler, and run them in a docker swarm on 3 arm boards, you know since docker provides swarm mode for free why not use it, it makes an excellent poor man cluster; and everything is administered over the web with portainer. I use alpine for the base os running docker since gentoo musl for arm64 is not functional.......
Does it count as leaving gentoo?

I am actually fancing about a distcc container to emerge in cloud, that would be nice :-)
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine this person's problem is that Gentoo requires them to use their brain, as opposed to the babysitting distros they said they were ragequitting back to with pretty menu-based installers (that don't require one to know the difference between typing a windows "\" and a unix "/")

Actually, scratch that. They sound like an angry, clueless windows user here to troll. They don't even know what's running on their system.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Quote:
I haven't considered how to address the different versions / locations of "boot environment."
Overlayfs?
It supports multiple "lower" branches. You can flatten it as needed.
I have something like that for portage on a "resource constrained" machine AKA vps... And for a bunch of diskless servers that use pxe boot to ram.
I've heard of it, but don't recall having used it, so I'm not sure what it would look like in practice for this use case. Worth a look though. Added to my Someday List.
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Cuong Nguyen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks God, I am just on 2nd year *compiling* Gentoo. There is still 13 years to go for me. I thought I'd quit couples of time, but not this year, just bought new laptop with Skylake and 16G. I will keep *compiling*
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crocket
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo + NixOS or GuixSD = Evolution
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mir3x
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bye, I rarely upgrade my gentoo, often once per 6 months, not big deal.
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The_Document
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Ditching Gentoo Reply with quote

rvandam wrote:
...3. Stop automatically running emerge --sync. Its not in cron or any installed scheduler, but some where buried there is a script that is updating my portage ever 3 or 4 days. I posted this as a bug, and the portage maintainers looks as if I was crazy.


Weres your bug report.
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KatsuoRyuu
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol bye - or do like others, i have a server that run wordpress sites, so im basically just using a small part of the idle process to compile almost constantly(using git to update repo), and have the binary packages for installation on all my other systems. Everything is almost done and im running tests on x86-64-multilib-generic system.
its public so if anyone feel like it feel free to grab bin from it lol.

https://portage.ryuu.technology/gentoo/packages/x86_64-multilib-generic/

This is largely the easiest way for me to hold all my systems up to date, work mediacenters, laptops, and desktop computers.
but yes as some says it defeats the purpose of configuration, but this is specifically for my machines, so my configuration.

Anyways, have an awesome Gentoo Day everyone :D
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pun_guin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I haven't considered how to address the different versions / locations of "boot environment."


Ah, one of the few things which Solaris has always done right while Linux still struggles ... :)

rvandam made one good point: Keeping Gentoo updated feels annoyingly time-taking if you are used to Slackware or other binary distributions. I admit that I have considered to go back to Void a few times as well, and I even tried to run Slackware in a VirtualBox (which did not even boot its installer - ha!), because I sometimes miss to have a mere couple of seconds between "please install/update this application" and "there it is!", but Gentoo feels just right now.
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