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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Now the F-35 not only has to fill the role of the F-111 and the F-14 but the A-10, A-6, and AV-8B Harrier.

Hang on, I've had a lot of sake, but this statement needs some amendments:

1. I don't think anything's replacing the A-10 and Congress knows it.
2. The AV-8B is very capably replaced by the F-35B.
3. The F-35A, at present, is more of an F-16 replacement than anything.
4. The F-18 has effectively already replaced the F-14, but the F-35C will be somewhat replacing even that.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was speaking in terms of roles rather than strictly aircraft. As you point out, most of the listed types have already been replaced by other types. And actually F-35 is supposed to replace the A-10. One can only wonder who came up with that brilliant idea. Maybe it was Private Snafu...
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Private Snafu...

Okay...*hic*... Lemme correct you there.

If we are dealing with the U.S. Army, then this individual is referred to as Private Snuffy.

If we are dealing with the U.S. Marine Corp, then this individual is referred to as Private First Class Schmuckatelli.

Now...I must go pass out somewhere...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
1. I don't think anything's replacing the A-10 and Congress knows it.


Try telling that to the Air Force brass. They want to be rid of it sooo bad. They seem to think that CAS is beneath them.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's done been made. Go shoot and bomb some shit with it, and get on with making the AI nanoDeath swarms.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Go shoot and bomb some shit with it...

Done
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Go shoot and bomb some shit with it...

Done


A stealth Harrier and F-18 replacement. Gotta admit, that is a neat aircraft.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Go shoot and bomb some shit with it...

Done


A stealth Harrier and F-18 replacement. Gotta admit, that is a neat aircraft.

The F-35B is supposed to have a 7G limiter. I would really like to see what it can do, but the Marine pilots continually baby it at the airshows, compared to what the Air Force likes to do with the F-35A.

Most aggressive turns known so far:
F-35A <-- It comes out of this and goes immediately into a vertical climb.
F-35B <-- At this time, the F-35B was probably limited to 5.5G.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F-4 had a pseudo 8 g limiter... the pilot would pass out.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The F-4 had a pseudo 8 g limiter... the pilot would pass out.

Really? I didn't know that thing could even pull that.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Muso wrote:
The F-4 had a pseudo 8 g limiter... the pilot would pass out.

Really? I didn't know that thing could even pull that.


It bends the airframe.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the crashed recently F-35B, no info given that I can see as to why though.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
The F-4 had a pseudo 8 g limiter... the pilot would pass out.


Not necessarily true, the Redbull guys regularly pull 12G turns. Even with a G suit your body can withstand that for a couple of seconds, you have about that time before all of the blood drains from your brain and you pass out.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this plane use that really expensive, really fragile radar paint?
The f117 and B2 had to be kept in climatised hangers and excessive treatments to keep them "stealthy"

If this bird is on carriers it better be resilient to the elements, salt water is one of the most corrosive substances. Given enough time, not alot survives
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's supposed to be a lot more durable than what's on the F-22, which has to be reapplied every few months.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Does this plane use that really expensive, really fragile radar paint?
The f117 and B2 had to be kept in climatised hangers and excessive treatments to keep them "stealthy"
I read that the materials where altered so paint wasn't necessary.

However, do keep in mind that the paint is only a very small percentage of the cross section reduction in reality. The shape is the dominating factor. The Blackbirds used iron with their edge treatment and it cut their cross section significantly.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Naib wrote:
Does this plane use that really expensive, really fragile radar paint?
The f117 and B2 had to be kept in climatised hangers and excessive treatments to keep them "stealthy"
I read that the materials where altered so paint wasn't necessary.

However, do keep in mind that the paint is only a very small percentage of the cross section reduction in reality. The shape is the dominating factor. The Blackbirds used iron with their edge treatment and it cut their cross section significantly.
I agree the shape is quite a large factor in what is reflected back and thus the cross sectional area determines the detection range ( http://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/The%20Radar%20Range%20Equation.en.html ) , but the goop has been part of the method ( http://s61.radikal.ru/i173/1001/10/7f3f4d2ef512.jpg ). If improvements in CAD has enabled realising contours that reduce what is reflected back then that is good
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
... but the goop has been part of the method ( http://s61.radikal.ru/i173/1001/10/7f3f4d2ef512.jpg ). If improvements in CAD has enabled realising contours that reduce what is reflected back then that is good
Of course. When it comes to war gaining an extra 2-10% advantage is very important. I don't have hard numbers as those are doubtlessly classified however I do recall seeing that the vast majority was shape based leaving around 2% for the paint. I don't have a source for this. The YB-49 was actually extremely stealthy with absolutely no stealth features just coincidence. They discovered it because the coastal defense radar was having problems tracking it on a test flight.

The question really becomes what is good enough and when is the effort not worth it. Something that must be absolutely invisible like a B-2 needs much better stealth than a close support bomber who is probably more worried about being shot at with bullets.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the B-2 was designed for lobbing in nukes at standoff distance with the opposition force was too busy with everything else?

Remember that the US has very long supply lines anywhere (even within the US itself lol). I think they took the idea of "simplifying" the logistics into the extreme.... Granted, the Air force hating CAS seems to be something that's existed since the Second World War.
What worries me is the link capability between aircraft. I remember seeing a couple articles floating around about Russia EW jamming F-35 capabilities in Syria two nations away.....

Also, can someone explain the design phiosphy behind US aircraft? I understand that Russian aircraft are built basicly not give a **** over FODs (Read: Titanium intake shields until higher alts), and generally have vaccum tube (Some claim these to be EMP resistant) electronics (Maybe cause the USSR broke up in the 90s and they never really got new craft in large numbers?) and rely more on the skill of the pilot with lack of FBW? I understand the desire of the military to cram as much new tech as possible, but does anyone serriously expect in a conflict to not have a ton of FODs on any land based runway after T+1 day of the conflict?

I just read a lot of Glantz/Chinese army documents that have been declassfied. Chinese doctrine to a large extent is just Soviet doctrine with some of their own changes.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US military aircraft are designed to kill the enemy before they notice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F-35 has two primary goals:

1. Strike without being seen.
2. Gather information and share it in real-time.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
US military aircraft are designed to kill the enemy before they notice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
Not quite what the OODA loop means, bit true. The OODA loop is a decision making model; observe, orient, decide, and act; while the aircraft is intended to kill without being seen. Reality may not agree with those design goals and likely will not. The enemy has a vested interest in preventing it and therein lies the problem. No plan survives the enemy.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Muso wrote:
US military aircraft are designed to kill the enemy before they notice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
Not quite what the OODA loop means, bit true. The OODA loop is a decision making model; observe, orient, decide, and act; while the aircraft is intended to kill without being seen. Reality may not agree with those design goals and likely will not. The enemy has a vested interest in preventing it and therein lies the problem. No plan survives the enemy.


My point being that the OODA loop is a fundamental concept into how out military works.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but aren't those two almost a paradox??

Quote:

The F-35 has two primary goals:

1. Strike without being seen.
2. Gather information and share it in real-time.


How does one strike without being seen if they are constantly sending out information???????? I'm sure anyone can scan for radio emissions and just send a missle that uses radio emissions as inital guidence before switching to radar/IR?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mountain mystic wrote:
I'm sorry, but aren't those two almost a paradox??

Quote:

The F-35 has two primary goals:

1. Strike without being seen.
2. Gather information and share it in real-time.


How does one strike without being seen if they are constantly sending out information???????? I'm sure anyone can scan for radio emissions and just send a missle that uses radio emissions as inital guidence before switching to radar/IR?

Who said anything about doing these at the same time?
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