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Rad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Thumbs up to the Council Reply with quote

I just wanted to give a thumbs up to the Gentoo Council for this. I'm not sure it is a final version, but I very much approve of this line of thought regardless.

It would surely be far less effort to issue bans easily and avoid some bothersome discussions. Easier at least than to deal with imperfect and potentially annoying/annoyed people calmly and maybe quite many times. But the relaxed approach with many chances for offenders is far better for the community, I think. Thanks for caring!


... we should now all proceed to make use of this fancy process. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that diff as "we can't kick anybody out" and "comrel is now called proctor".

/shrug
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunder,

You misread. Read the proctors project page.
The proctors project that was disbanded in 2007 is being resurrected.

I'll say no more as I remember to original project and I really wish that the new team succeeds.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
I'll say no more as I remember to original project and I really wish that the new team succeeds.

NeddySeagoon ... with the "proctor must be a developer" clause, and with developers (including a listed proctor, rich0) denying they are subject to the charter (and so reneging on the very thing that provides them the right to act on gentoo's behalf), I see no grounds for seeing this as anything more than a tool for developers to do as they please, only with greater power to assert their pleasure (or displeasure when it comes to criticism) above that of "the community".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam,

Being old and cynical and one of the original proctors, I won't add anything to what I've already said.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
NeddySeagoon ... with the "proctor must be a developer" clause, and with developers (including a listed proctor, rich0) denying they are subject to the charter (and so reneging on the very thing that provides them the right to act on gentoo's behalf), I see no grounds for seeing this as anything more than a tool for developers to do as they please, only with greater power to assert their pleasure (or displeasure when it comes to criticism) above that of "the community".
Damn, it's ages since I've seen that thread.
Just to say: that is definitely not how most programmers view their users, and:
I am sorry you were subjected to such trite malice, even more so in the realm of computing, from someone supposedly competent in the craft.

NFC what's been going on recently, nor whether these really are the same as the original proctors, both in intent and spirit.

One can hope, while still knowing that the chances are, that it's just another power-grab, part of a series brought to you by the RedHatGoogePlex "gentle Putsch."

Meantime, our Gentoo still works rock-solid. :-)

If that's going to change, I'll simply overlay whatever I want. You cannot change the nature of a from-source distro, with political machination nor any other kind.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Just to say: that is definitely not how most programmers view their users


I didn't say anything in the linked comment about how I view "users." I simply said that it doesn't make sense to kick out devs simply for not working on the things a particular user wants them to work on. That just means less things getting worked on, not more.

I imagine most of our devs are users themselves, and many contribute in the hope that others will benefit. They might not make the contributions some people might most desire, but they're still basically handing out free stuff.

Honestly, it has been months since I've even seen a list conversation that I'd consider moderating as a proctor, and that is a good thing. I'm sure there are flame wars in bugs/etc that are less obvious that might get referred. The intent of proctors is more to try to nudge people in the right direction - any bans/etc handed out are short-duration and mainly intended to interrupt flame wars and such.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Just to say: that is definitely not how most programmers view their users

rich0 wrote:
I didn't say anything in the linked comment about how I view "users." I simply said that it doesn't make sense to kick out devs simply for not working on the things a particular user wants them to work on. That just means less things getting worked on, not more.

rich0 ... again, you're misrepresenting that discussion, and I can only assume intentionally so, because that particular slight-of-hand has been countered. It is not a case, as you frame it, of doing someone's bidding, but of serving "the community". The rhetorical "kicking out" had nothing to do with them, or you, "not working on things a particular user wants" but simply my pointing out that having disavowed the charter as the principle document on how gentoo is governed, devs, or more specifically you, would no longer be acting under the grant provided by that charter, and so are in essence illegitimate. Again, it is the charter which stipulates/institutes the rights and obligations of everyone operating under the name gentoo, there is no other (legal) formulation of what gentoo is, and how it is governed, and so if "the distro" is not subject to it (as you'd claimed), then "the distro" has no legitimacy what-so-ever. So, as I've stated elsewhere, dev's can't have their cake and eat it too, they either accept the terms and conditions of the charter or they stop operating fraudulently under the name gentoo.

rich0 wrote:
I imagine most of our devs are users themselves, and many contribute in the hope that others will benefit. They might not make the contributions some people might most desire, but they're still basically handing out free stuff.

It doesn't work like that, developers don't get an out from serving the interests of "the community" by virtue of the fact they are "handing out free stuff" ... and I should point out (again) it's not just those granted the moniker "developer" who are providing their time/labour, and no one doing so could possibly argue that actions not serving the community should be taken as is because they are providing their time/labour for "free".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, my intent here was to clarify my position, not to re-ignite the debate over the role of the Foundation charter, or the e.V. charter, or whatever other vision anybody has for what Gentoo is or ought to be. The representatives of these various organizations can offer their own opinions, as can anybody else. My opinion on that point was already stated, and IMO a debate in a forum thread that almost nobody reads probably isn't going to accomplish much either way.

Most devs just want to get on with contributing, and basically have been doing so through all the noise...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0 wrote:
So, my intent here was to clarify my position, not to re-ignite the debate over the role of the Foundation charter, or the e.V. charter, or whatever other vision anybody has for what Gentoo is or ought to be. The representatives of these various organizations can offer their own opinions, as can anybody else. My opinion on that point was already stated, and IMO a debate in a forum thread that almost nobody reads probably isn't going to accomplish much either way.

rich0 ... well, "your position" was "[...] that it doesn't make sense to kick out devs simply for not working on the things a particular user wants them to work on", which in this context is a misrepresentation of that previous discussion, and of the post you were responding to in this thread. You want that you now get a free pass, because you don't now wish to "re-ignite the debate", as though you are free of any and all consequences. As for the charter, it's non-debatable, your "position" is completely untenable. If you doubt that then please provide the source of your right to act on behalf of gentoo. As I said previously, all you have is some story about someone giving you commit rights, and so making you a developer, whereas the charter provides the only source of the right to do anything under the gentoo project, and comes with clear obligations ("for the community, by the community", etc).

rich0 wrote:
Most devs just want to get on with contributing, and basically have been doing so through all the noise...

The only noise here is that of you desperately trying to get out from under the yoke of the charter, and all the misdirection involved in your attempt to do so.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0 wrote:
Honestly, it has been months since I've even seen a list conversation that I'd consider moderating as a proctor, and that is a good thing.
The issue is that you are singularly unqualified to be a proctor; or to be more accurate "Moderator".

Clearly what's happening is that the fact that: the Code of Conduct disciplinary proceedings only apply to developers -- because the developers shafted the original proctors team, who as decided by the Community process over more than 6 months of back and forth discussion, were modelled after the forum moderators, from whom most of the initial team were drawn -- is not what RedHatGooglePlexus wants.

Just as it would suit many of the more venomous "developers" if they could enforce their nub attempts at social policy on the far more mature userbase in the forums as well as on IRC and in banal mailing-lists, so it would suit the relatively few fifth-columnists working on behalf of the bindists and their vast tax-dodging owners.

So in a nutshell, what the "developers" have done (and that's not the vast majority, who just get on with their code and enjoy their lives) is turn it around and say "ha-ha! with a wave of our hands we mislabel 'comrel' [which is now composed solely of devs, as it was never meant to be] 'proctors' and we can do what we want! including harrass, hound and ban those pesky users who don't kowtow to us, but insist on treating us as equal human-beings."

AFAIC the people behind this are real slime. Not on a personal level, as I have no clue what they are like IRL, and I am sure most of them are perfectly pleasant and/or harmless.
Just in terms of what they are doing to sell out the Gentoo which raised and nurtured them, whether they do so knowingly or not (both are equally contemptible imo.)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
the developers shafted the original proctors team


Uh, you do realize there are probably only a half dozen developers even still around from that time, right? I was around for that, but I was not a developer at the time.

In any case, your argument makes a lot of assumptions about the motivations of a group which so far to date has been asked to intervene in one case and has yet to take action. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the effort died out having done nothing, because I think most devs (Proctors/Comrel included) are tired of being the bad guys.

But, I could end up being surprised...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0 wrote:
I think most devs (Proctors/Comrel included) are tired of being the bad guys.

Could be because they aren't tag as bad guys because they are judging someone, but tag as bad guys because of some other actions they are doing.

I have never seen anyone tagging any of the moderators here as bad guys, while they do take actions over people here.
But i have also never seen the moderators here creating a group to pass over something or extend their power beyong their limit.

So tell us, how should we tag a group of devs that create an entity that:
1/ will judge devs and users (not gentoo users, all users, some people here are not using gentoo, still they are using the forum or other medium, and are de facto falling into proctor's hands)
2/ we have moderators and CoC here, that is not define per using gentoo or contributing to gentoo, but only define per using the forum, like many people in OTW, or just people using a non gentoo distro asking a question here
3/ an entity made only of gentoo devs, that could be appeal to another entity also made only of devs
4/ why a gentoo dev with a one year experience is any better than a non gentoo dev with yearS of experience ; NeddySeagoon (yeah, let's take a mega super extra abusing example) is not a gentoo dev (right?), as such, cannot be proctor ; do you think he would do worster job as proctor than M. Random that join gentoo devs a year ago?
And this goes for many many moderators that are active here for years and years and moderating, while aren't gentoo devs. What let you think a year old gentoo dev is a better value than a moderator that is doing the job and has learn from years of experience diplomacy and appropritate level of answer to a problem???
5/ grant themselves 2 extra free actions over someone (as you are limiting to appeal decision at 3rd only)

Your moves (not you personaly, making a generality) are only seen for what they really are: not an attempt to solve conflict better (what proctor is fixing that comrel was lacking? Ah yes nothing, except granting two free actions and extending it to any users), but making sure any problem will be only judge by that little community inside our community, made only of gentoo devs.
The forum itself have its own judges and doesn't need any proctors that grant themselves power over them.
The users (not gentoo, the forum users) agree and accept rules define in the forum, in no way they accept any rules define by gentoo devs ; that should be limit to other gentoo devs. And this goes for other medium, you join them accepting their rules and fall under their moderators, nowhere you have accept any hidden rule from an entity made of devs

Because if anyone would wish a fairer and really better judges, he would just make a paper that define moderators (all medium) also as comrel (no need for proctors), solving a shit lot of problems in one shot ; you don't have to search for proctors in your tiny dev community with the problem of mini-clans within it where everyone knows each other and where the rule of the king and its servant prevail over any fairness AND you have access to people who are train for the job already ; while users and devs would be judge by other users and devs (and not by devs only).

Why you could appeal to comrel, and appeal from comrel decision to another entity that is made for technical problems when the problem is not technical but relational or legal? You find logic that if a dev start doing something, Council will judge his action that aren't technical, and could judge them ok while it would not be legal under the Gentoo Foundation's laws?
Why relational problems are given to people that are known to be asocial (geek are not the first people anyone would tag as social, and without doubt, most of our gentoo devs are asocial geek, that's this asocial behavior that make a dev good, because he will use his time to code instead of socializing outside with people).
Many technicals problems doesn't lead to a conflict, it's social problem that goes into that : systemd is better than openrc won't lead to a problem (technically speaking), the problem will appears as soon as someone start insulting the over ; so basically, technical dispute won't goes to a conflict, that's social behavior that would escalade this.
And our math/computer superiors minded geek devs think "who would be the best to judge this kind of problem? well, asocial guys for sure, so us!"
That's the same guys that find logic that a dev that has never post anything in a year, never speak with anyone except his mentor, is good to be proctor while pjp is not?

So i think it would be insulting to think gentoo devs are not aware of this, and if they don't follow the logic that's because not following it follow their own interest (yep it's always better to be judge by another dev than pjp if you have a conflict with a user ; neutrality is good but if you know the balance is for you already, neutrality is bad.

Or let's get the two free actions, because well "To avoid an overburdening bureaucracy, and taking into account the limited impact of Proctor decisions" ; are we speaking about the guy that get in an irc channel saying "dick dick dick" and you need to ban/kick him?
Are we speaking about the guy that get in the forum with "we sell viagra and Windows copy"?
Of course not, so all ban and actions taken by Proctor are not toward these guys, as such, none of them would be of any "limited impact", because you would not take action over any of such kind of guys, but real users.

And that's why you are seen as bad guys, because we aren't fool by what you are doing, moderators here take actions and ban people (not all day sure, but they do) and none is telling any of our moderators are bad guys.
But if they start creating "the mod pro++" group that ban anyone that say the word "openrc", yep, they will be named bad guys quiet fast...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

krinn,

Actually, the forum administrators, as well as moderators, are Gentoo developers too. :]

Some whiles ago, they were called 'staffers' (Neddy might still call himself that), but that title was abolished in favour of 'developer' (effectively they were already developers back then). There is a developer-quiz (formerly staff-quiz) that people can take, which does not involve ebuilds, and as such, gives no access to the official Gentoo ebuild repository (just like the staff-quiz didn't).

See also: https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/become-developer/
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
Actually, the forum administrators, as well as moderators, are Gentoo developers too. :]

I wasn't aware about that, still not all moderators are forum moderators :)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
Actually, the forum administrators, as well as moderators, are Gentoo developers too. :]
Then developer must refer to something other than software developer. Note that I am also not a land developer, business developer, or most likely any other kind of developer.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Chiitoo wrote:
Actually, the forum administrators, as well as moderators, are Gentoo developers too. :]
Then developer must refer to something other than software developer. Note that I am also not a land developer, business developer, or most likely any other kind of developer.

We develop the community to what we... wait, forget that last part. That was for another meeting.

The forums are a part of Gentoo, and keeping them clean is definitely a part of developing them. Or so at least I think.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:

I have no problem with a generalized bucket, but see emoticon.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
the developers shafted the original proctors team
rich0 wrote:
Uh, you do realize there are probably only a half dozen developers even still around from that time, right? I was around for that, but I was not a developer at the time.
Way to evade the substantive.. again.
Makes zero difference, IOW, to the fact that a continual bait-and-switch has been in operation for about 10 years or so.
Quote:
In any case, your argument makes a lot of assumptions about the motivations of a group which so far to date has been asked to intervene in one case and has yet to take action.
Utter nonsense.
As usual a nice deflection into what was not even being discussed, with rhetoric inherent in the implicit appeal to "natural justice" ("let's give them a chance".. ie: "the person whose points I am trying to ignore is *not nice*" (boo hiss))

I think most users are tired of explaining the same thing over and over to people who simply do not want to listen to the reality, but would like to continue feeding themselves and us, delusional nonsense with no basis in actuality.

That you continually represent, and indeed recommend, a fraudulent position does not bode well for the outcome of the action of this wonderfuel "group" of yours.
Please, stop the lying. It is beneath all of us.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
The forums are a part of Gentoo, and keeping them clean is definitely a part of developing them. Or so at least I think.

Chiitoo ... I don't think the naming matters so much, there is no reason not to distinguish between moderator, developer, or what-have-you. The issue is the requirement that positions (namely proctors) come from those granted the moniker developer, as there is nothing in the charter which excludes any part of our community from acting on gentoo's behalf (there is no barrier to entry ... other than abiding by the obligations/terms set out in the charter). That's the substantive issue: some party thinking it has a right to govern, when it does not. Of course, not much can happen without wider agreement (I've yet to see anyone acknowledge my position as Inspector General ... a role I've occupied since January 2017 ;) but there is nothing to stop any part of our community creating their own, non-exclusive, proctors (or other agency), because no one has exclusive right to operate under the name gentoo. Unfortunately, some think they do have an exclusive right, and have gone so far as to close off inclusion by ruling that such positions can only be occupied by "developers".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Chiitoo wrote:
The forums are a part of Gentoo, and keeping them clean is definitely a part of developing them. Or so at least I think.

Chiitoo ... I don't think the naming matters so much, there is no reason not to distinguish between moderator, developer, or what-have-you. The issue is the requirement that positions (namely proctors) come from those granted the moniker developer [...]

I was merely pointing out that the moderators et alii here are in fact officially developers, accepted via recruiting and passing the quiz. That, and the fact that they used to be called staff. :]

As for the requirement of being a developer to do these things, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle, seeing sense in both, not requiring for some things, but also requiring it for other things.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
As for the requirement of being a developer to do these things

That's what you didn't get right.
There's no real requierement to be a developer base on any skill ; the requierement is to exclude other from the group, not about their skill.
Just like if John Carmak was a gentoo user, we wouldn't allow him to be proctor because he is not a gentoo dev, but none could doubt about his developement level or skill.
And it goes the same for Freud, that would lack totally computer skill, but would be great as proctor, because proctors are not there to code, but to solve issue with dispute.

Get it now? The "only gentoo devs" is not there to make sure a user have a certain computer skill, but to make sure gentoo devs keep power over other users
Hence this project aim is not really "handle better dispute issue", but "Make sure gentoo devs will remain the Kings".
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Chiitoo ... I don't think the naming matters so much, there is no reason not to distinguish between moderator, developer, or what-have-you. The issue is the requirement that positions (namely proctors) come from those granted the moniker developer [...]

Chiitoo wrote:
As for the requirement of being a developer to do these things, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle, seeing sense in both, not requiring for some things, but also requiring it for other things.

Chiitoo ... sure, but that is why I focused on the specific role of governance. I wouldn't want anyone, or everyone, to have commit access to the tree, but being a developer doesn't grant one the right to govern, or make one necessarily good at it, or at resolving essentially socio-political issues. Having this in my background it's daft that I have to listen to a proctor tell me how gentoo is governed, when I know they haven't a clue on the subject, and so don't understand how gentoo is constituted. What's worse is that this makes for poor governance, because lacking in that understanding they resort to "well, it's our ball ... so we can do what we like", etc, which then leads me, and others, to think that, yup, you are the "bad guys" (no matter how sick they may be of the label). There is absolutely no reason the proctors should be closed to the wider community (ie, outside of those classed as developers), in fact its contrary to the second pillar of the charter: "every aspect of Gentoo is and remains open", and developers (alone) shouldn't be given a pass to make such rules.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's been a lot of moves to concentrate the seat of power away from the community lately, haven't there? First the dev ml was made invite-only, then policies were reworded to make explicit that the forums are to have no input in policymaking or even be made aware of what's taking place, and now the very phrase “Community Relations” is being whitewashed out of existence, because there's no point pretending they have any relation to the community any more. All this came about after the GWN/GMN stopped shining light on the developer cabal.

I see the pattern they were trying to hide from the users, now what's the end goal here?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Chiitoo ... I don't think the naming matters so much, there is no reason not to distinguish between moderator, developer, or what-have-you.
It matters very much for the fraud of bait-and-switch (a term I'm sure you are familiar with.)
khayyam wrote:
The issue is the requirement that positions (namely proctors) come from those granted the moniker developer, as there is nothing in the charter which excludes any part of our community from acting on gentoo's behalf (there is no barrier to entry ... other than abiding by the obligations/terms set out in the charter). That's the substantive issue: some party thinking it has a right to govern, when it does not. Of course, not much can happen without wider agreement (I've yet to see anyone acknowledge my position as Inspector General ... a role I've occupied since January 2017 ;) but there is nothing to stop any part of our community creating their own, non-exclusive, proctors (or other agency), because no one has exclusive right to operate under the name gentoo. Unfortunately, some think they do have an exclusive right, and have gone so far as to close off inclusion by ruling that such positions can only be occupied by "developers".
That is one issue, certainly (and one I'd need to think on some more, as I hadn't really considered that aspect.)
To my mind, the elephant-in-the-room is that: developers are specifically selected for aptitude at what most consider an anti-social task.

As a group, they make a big deal about how they are only selected on technical merit (and ofc it shows.)
The Council is specifically mandated to deal only with technical matters, and then only by the developers themselves.

Just quite how such a bunch of semi-functioning autists got the idea that they were cut out to be moderators, is perhaps worthy of a social-anthropology dissertation, but certainly an ongoing source of amusement round these parts.[1]

In any event, that is one of the big lies underlying the bait-and-switch; and it is completely counter to both the Gentoo Charter under whose aegis the whole shebang operates, and the experience of the entire computing industry over the last 50 years. Programmers are notoriously bad at people-skills; that's why we don't in the main, ask those of them.

The other lie is that the developers are somehow more important than the userbase, from which they are drawn. This is simply stupid on multiple levels, as any professional programmer would tell you in a heartbeat. (and again, completely contrary to the Charter of the Gentoo Foundation.)

The principle that developers should be held to a higher-standard, not a lower one with every toxic whim indulged, has been part of the Gentoo DNA since the beginning, certainly since before I started posting.

Frankly I am fed up to my back teeth of all these lies, and all this noxious apparatchik sellout behaviour posing as knowhow.

Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves, IMO.
FFS stop wasting so much time telling yourselves how great you all are for chatting crap all day long, and get on with both your real lives, and the real work.
Who knows, you might even find a lover if you just let go of the need to be "right" on the internet all day long, and get out in the real world once in a while (the one where legal rules actually matter more than what some dicqhead told you in the cargo-cult.)
/rant

==
[1] When, that is, our choice of platform is not making it difficult to talk seriously with real CS people, purely based on their experience with venomous Gentoo "devs" who take their badge of "technical merit" at writing bash scriptlets (in a house-"style" long considered by the apt to be both pretentious and ignorant) as some sort of vindication of their toxic personality.
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